The Heavy Burden of Black And White

Culture, Politics & Current Events

We like black and white, we do. We don't like shades of gray. We don't like nuance. We don't like tension between competing ideas. Even when we pretend to embrace complexity, we scornfully reject it when it intrudes into areas we care about.

We believe in the zero-sum game — the proposition that something is all one thing or all the other, that you can't blame one person for a bad event without diminishing the blame of another.

But that's not the way the world actually works.

As an example, take the revolting attacks on the United States Embassies in Cairo and Benghazi yesterday.

Our tolerance for nuance and complexity dives to all-time lows after such barbarity. We're only human.

But complexity remains.

It's possible to say that there is no excuse whatsoever for this violence in response to speech you don't like, and that the angry mob should be condemned without qualification, and still believe — and say — that "filmmaker" Sam Bacile is a vile bigoted douchebag peddling contemptible hate-smut.

It's possible to say that the bigoted Bacile has an absolute right in the United States to make and distribute anti-Muslim propaganda (with very narrowly limited exceptions — for instance, showing it to an angry crowd gathered outside a mosque might be intended to cause, and likely to cause, a clear and present danger of imminent lawless action), and say say that his exercise of that right makes him vermin. He seems like a verminy kind of guy. Here's what he had to say about the murders in Benghazi:

Though Bacile said he felt sorry about the death of the American who was killed in the outrage over his film, he blamed lax embassy security and the perpetrators of the violence.

"I feel the security system [at the embassies] is no good," said Bacile. "America should do something to change it."

(The argument that Bacile is not legally responsible for mob violence is correct, the argument that he is not morally responsible for mob violence is persuasive to me, but the argument that the fault lies with bad security is the sign of a disordered mind.)

It's possible, on the one hand, to say that the international Muslim community has within it dangerous extremists who believe they have a right to use violence against innocents to enforce their religious orthodoxy on everyone else, and also, on the other hand, to say that there is simultaneously anti-Muslim bigotry characterized by betrayal of American values, lunacy, and dogged refusal to see Muslims as individual human beings.

It's possible to defy extremists who want to use the threat of murder to enforce their religious orthodoxy upon us — and defy those who would abuse official power to do the same thing — and also condemn bigots.

It's possible to say that some Muslims are, as a result of their beliefs, a grave danger to us, and also to say that we have engaging in deeply disturbing policies as a result.

It's possible to condemn the U.S. Embassy in Cairo's terrible statement whilst also recognizing that people are using criticisms of the statement cynically for advantage in the presidential race.

Certainly some expressions of "nuance" can be one-sided capitulations. I maintain that the Embassy in Cairo offered such a capitulation yesterday, for reasons I described in yesterday's post; compare those to the administration's subsequent statements that there is no excuse for the violence.

But on the whole, we are too wedded to the zero-sum game — to the notion that we must be on-message like a political flack, conceding no point that might detract from the message of the day.

Last 5 posts by Ken White

101 Comments

100 Comments

  1. The Curmudgeon  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:39 am

    It's possible to say that some Muslims are, as a result of their beliefs, a grave danger to us, and also to say that…

    You didn't quite finish that thought, Ken.

    But I don't care. This is a great post.

  2. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:40 am

    What, exactly, is "hate smut"?

    It seems to me that there are ideologies that are flat out wrong, and that cause a lot of human suffering.

    I have no problem with saying that Nazism is wrong in almost every particular, from its racism to its antisemitism to its corporatist socialism. I also have no problem with saying truthful and insulting things about its founder.

    I have no problem with saying that Communism is wrong in almost every particular, from its classism to its antisemitism to its corporatist socialism. I also have no problem with saying truthful and insulting things about its founders.

    Now, if I think that Islam is a flawed ideology (and I do) on par with Nazism and Communism, then what is wrong with me (or Bacile) pointing out that the ideology is flawed, and that there are things that all historical accounts agree to be true:
    * Mohammed was a polygamist
    * Mohammed tried to gain the favor of the Jews, then got very angry at them when they would not back him
    * Mohammed had sex with a "wife" who was under what we all modern civilized people take to be the age of consent
    * Mohammed founded a religion that is among the most backwards on the planet
    ?

    Further, what is wrong with me (or Bacile) following H L Mencken's advice that one horse-laugh is worth a thousand syllogisms?

    Serious questions, all, and I'd love to hear your answers.

  3. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:43 am

    bigot – n – a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

    Does the fact that I consider every Nazi I ever meet to be utterly wrong and to believe utterly evil things make me a bigot?

    If yes, then I don't mind being called a bigot.

    If no, then why is it bigoted to scorn (deeply and repeatedly) a religion and theocratic political system that I find to be based on lies and murder, but not bigoted to scorn (deeply and repeatedly) an atheistic political system that I find to be based on lies and murder?

    Again, a serious question, and I'd like your answer.

  4. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:47 am

    Final point:

    I believe that your immediate reaction to disliking Islam – the whole of it – and calling such an opinion bigoted is based in a mindset that grew out of the European religious wars following the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, whether consciously or not.

    I further suggest that the assertion that "contempt for a religion is always bigoted" is not (or at least, SHOULD not be) an axiomatic moral statement, but is instead just an evolved adaptive cultural preference that allowed European Christians to live in relative harmony. It's the result of a mutual disarmament pact: "we won't take our religion – or yours – so seriously if you promise to do the same". Once most people who failed to sign on to that compact killed each other off, most of the survivors did agree.

    The problem with this cultural construct is that it is the result of MUTUAL memetic disarmament, and it doesn't work so well when a third player materializes on the scene who has not memetically disarmed.

  5. Ken  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:48 am

    ou didn't quite finish that thought, Ken.

    Fixed. Thanks.

  6. Gavin  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:50 am

    You may want to finish that sentence:

    It's possible to say that some Muslims are, as a result of their beliefs, a grave danger to us, and also to say that

  7. Gavin  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:52 am

    Sorry, I got a call from a firm before I submitted that post (no one had posted when I started).

  8. Demosthenes  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:54 am

    I flat-out went after you earlier today, Ken, when I thought you were horribly wrong on one point. So I feel it is my obligation, as someone who wants to be a good net-izen, to tell you that there is absolutely nothing in this post with which I disagree.

    And it's more than my obligation…it's my pleasure. Thank you for this.

  9. Lizard  •  Sep 12, 2012 @12:02 pm

    Here is the problem. We live in a society where acknowledging the flaws of one's own arguments or the strengths of an opponents is not considered acceptable, and, further, that the side one takes in any debate is entirely predicated on what one wants. That is, if discussing if a given law is or is not Constitutional, if you say it is not, that means, that MUST mean (under the dominant paradigm) that you don't like the law or oppose the law or want the law to not pass. It is not (again, under the prevailing worldview) possible that you think it's a good law, a noble law, a law that would make the world a better place and bring a child's beloved kitten back from the dead, but that the Constitution clearly doesn't permit it. The reverse is also true — if you think the law is constitutional, you must approve of the law. It is impossible for many people to look at a concept without first deciding what they WANT to be true and then working backwards to prove it. Intelligence and education do not help us make better decisions; they help us better justify decisions made pretty much without the conscious brain being involved at all.

    This particular issue does incline me to take a more absolutist stance, because we've seen the consequences of capitulation — books removed from shelves, television censored — all because of any hint of a shadow of a protest from any random, nameless, fanatic, anywhere in the world. If it is shown that threats of violence are enough to cause de facto censorship of anti-Muslim material (while it is not 'censorship' if not government ordered, it still accomplishes the goal of the protestors), then, it will not be long before everyone who finds something offensive will use the threat of violence to silence it. (Any time you hear a speaker has been cancelled at a college campus due to 'security concerns', this is what is going on.) You end up granting a heckler's veto to anyone sufficiently zealous that they're willing to threaten violence, and that's a lot of people, especially if they're convinced they won't need to actually carry it out. It doesn't even need to be a direct, legally actionable, threat, just a well conveyed "understanding" that if the film is shown, the book is sold, the speaker shows up, that there will be… trouble. Totally regrettable, of course. Not that we're advocating violence, you know, but it's hard for people to control their feelings. We're planning a peaceful protest, but, you know, things happen. People get out of control.

    Supporting the right to speech in no way implies support for the ideas expressed, or for the speaker. It should not be required to state "I don't agree with this" as a precondition for defending the right for someone else to express an idea. It should be assumed that the content of the idea is 100% irrelevant to the right to express the idea. Anyone who tries to shift the debate to what was said, or the moral character of the person who said it, is trying to change the conversation from being about free speech to being about the idea, and that's a trap to avoid. Likewise, there is, indeed, no excuse to respond to *thought* with *violence*. It may well be true that the people are poor, oppressed, illiterate, and controlled by demogogues with a political agenda. I have no trouble acknowledging those facts. They're simply not relevant, and trying to make them so is trying to get the camel's nose in the tent, trying to establish a precedent for saying, "Well, if you know some people will be moved to violence by an idea, then, it's the same as incitement, isn't it? We ban that, don't we?"

    To the largest extent possible, I try to start with a few core principles and then decide what I think about something based on those principles. Thus, I despise the Muslims who riot over cartoons or films, and I despise the Christians who want to ban mosques in America or claim Islam "isn't a religion" or that it's somehow objectively inferior to, or different from, other religions in more than trivial ways.

    I'm still, sadly, human, and a lot more of my brain evolved prior to consciousness than since it. The best I can hope for is to try to learn from mistakes and correct them.

  10. AJ  •  Sep 12, 2012 @12:05 pm

    All of this might be relevant if you buy the argument that the movie was the direct underlying cause of the riots. It might have been used to agitate the mob, but I am under no illusions that these riots were not planned in advance. The movie was just the excuse.

  11. ZK  •  Sep 12, 2012 @12:17 pm

    I'm trying to answer TJIC's questions, but am finding it hard to go from "A couple of my shooting buddies are Islamic, and I think they're great people" to a reasonably constructed logical statement. Can anyone help me out?

  12. C. S. P. Schofield  •  Sep 12, 2012 @12:17 pm

    I think there is a distinction to be made between somebody who attacks a culture or belief that is for the most part minding its own business, and somebody who attacks a culture or belief that is given to outbreaks of violence against its neighbors.

    Thus, if somebody wants to make a muckraking film about the Westboro Bab-tists, or Hamas ….. well, neither organization has any right to claim that they have adhered to common civility.

    I think that the putative filmmaker in this present ruction is probably a provocative pillock. That said, he has a perfect right to criticize Islam if he wants to. If some groups of Islamics want to attack our embassies because of that, well such is an act of war. Maybe we should make war on them, to remind the world how truly unpleasant life can get when the niceties of diplomatic usage get ignored.

    On the other hand, if pillock-boy gets punched in the nose by a respectable Islamic businessman, the puncher should be slapped, very lightly, once on each wrist.

  13. Gavin  •  Sep 12, 2012 @12:24 pm

    We do go through an awful lot of effort to make things black and white. Laws are generally intended for that purpose (and lawyers like to find the gray anyways!). I think there's a lot of room for both black and white in some areas and nuance in others. Yes, that produces a heck of a lot of conflict but it doesn't make the existence of all such options any less valid.

  14. mojo  •  Sep 12, 2012 @12:44 pm

    "The wogs begin at Calais."
    – George Wigg, Labour MP for Dudley, 1949

    Again, I apologize for my unseemly bias against Brits.

  15. Adrian Ratnapala  •  Sep 12, 2012 @12:58 pm

    It's possible to condemn the U.S. Embassy in Cairo's terrible statement whilst also recognizing that people are using criticisms of the statement cynically for advantage in the presidential race.

    And I am very glad that people are doing that. When I saw the first post, I thought it was hopeless. That the U.S. diplomatic corps would continue giving rhetorical ground to the worlds censors, it being the diplomatic thing to do. But now it is different, now whenever they issue as statement like this, they have to consider the fallout back home. They have an actual incentive to take democratic values into account.

    Excellent.

  16. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:07 pm

    @ZK
    > I'm trying to answer TJIC's questions

    Thank you!

    > but am finding it hard to go from "A couple of my shooting buddies
    > are Islamic, and I think they're great people" to a reasonably
    > constructed logical statement. Can anyone help me out?

    1) I have no desire to attack your shooting buddies, just as I have no particular desire to attack some intellectual who calls himself a "communist".

    2) I do have an active desire to attack both ideologies

    3) Most people who say that they are of ideology X really mean that they are of an ethnic or cultural group that claims to believe in X…but doesn't really. Most "Catholics" have never read the Catechism, don't know what original sin is, think that Q, R, and S are not sins (when Catholicism teaches that they are) and thinks that T, U, and V are sins (when Catholicism teaches that they are not). Most "Americans" (if we posit that as an ideology) haven't read the Declaration of Independence, don't recall that Jefferson said that revolution is not just a right but is an actual OBLIGATION, don't know what offenses the British committed, and don't stop to think whether the government today is legitimate under the terms of the Constitution.

    And so on and so forth.

    In short, most people are non-ideological, and your "Muslim" buddies likely are nothing of the sort, despite the fact that they THINK they are.

    I have huge disagreements with the Platonic ideals of Nazism, Communism, and Islam (each according to their own foundational documents). This doesn't mean that an individual who claims to follow such an ideology is actually my enemy.

    On the other hand, if I mock Hitler and someone who has previously claimed to be a Nazi now up and proves it by killing some innocent third party – well, now I'll give him the "benefit" of the doubt and acknowledge that he seems to be living up to his own credo.

  17. PhilG  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:14 pm

    but the argument that the fault lies with bad security is the sign of a disordered mind

    I mean, that is not objectively untrue. There was a failure of the security forces to adequately keep the embassy secure. I would hesitate to say it was a failure of the forces on the scene, but more likely a failure of planning which is all to often the real point of failure. Semantic issue? Maybe, but something that stood out while reading the post.

    @TJIC interesting points

  18. SheriffFatman  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:24 pm

    @TJIC: One possible distinction is that Nazism was homogeneous in a way Islam is not. Nazism was whatever Hitler said it was; while Islam includes the violent nutters in Benghazi at one end, and those who genuinely believe in and practice a "religion of peace" at the other (e.g., Sufis).

    Similarly, Christianity contains both those who reject violence in any circumstances whatsoever (e.g., the Quakers), and those who believe it is morally justifiable to shoot abortion doctors in the head.

    Oh, and one of your posts seems to suggest that Nazism was atheistic. It wasn't.

  19. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:26 pm

    @C. S. P. Schofield

    > I think there is a distinction to be made between somebody who attacks a culture or belief that is for the most part minding its own business, and somebody who attacks a culture or belief that is given to outbreaks of violence against its neighbors.

    > Thus, if somebody wants to make a muckraking film about the Westboro Bab-tists, or Hamas ….. well, neither organization has any right to claim that they have adhered to common civility.

    I disagree.

    Or, rather, I disagree that it's civil and legitimate to attack (where "attack" means vehemently disagree with verbally, in print, or in film) one and not the other.

    To say that it's uncivil to attack the beliefs of, say, the Mormons, on the basis that they're peaceful neighbors, is to say that theology is so unimportant that it is trumped by good manners. This is a very cucumber-sandwich-with-no-crusts worldview which implicitly denies some of the most important aspects of the human condition: our belief in what is right and what is wrong, our thoughts about the afterlife, the identity and will of our Creator.

    I don't often have cause to debate Mormonism, but I think that it is a false religion created by a con man (who had a documented history of using and talking about "scrying stones" to look for buried treasure) in order to give him material wealth, respectability, and access to boat loads of fresh young poontang that would make Heartiste / Roissy in DC blush. I think that it is theologically inept, incompetent, and laughable, and this is revealed by the fact that Mormonism – unlike other major world religions – has no serious seats of theological inquiry and research. There are testable and falsifiable historical claims that archaeology and genetics fail to support. It makes a hash of Christianity, yet claims to be Christian. It asserts that God was once a man like us, and that each believer may someday be a God ("god" ?) himself.

    As a Catholic I think that Mormonism is a false religion that has more doctrinal error than one can shake a stick at, and it endangers the souls of its adherents.

    I also think that Mormons, individually, are utterly wonderful people, and I'd rather live in a neighborhood of Mormons than pretty much any other demographic.

    …but to tell me that making a Mormon uncomfortable in order to attempt to save his soul is a faux pas is to bend a knee to Judith Martin instead of God.

  20. Phelps  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:28 pm

    As another wrinkle, evidence is mounting that the entire "film" is a hoax (poorly dubbed dialog over footage lifted from several different unrelated films) and that Bacile is a complete fiction.

    The question then becomes who is behind the hoax. I'm looking at the Muslim Brotherhood first.

  21. Pete  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:36 pm

    ZK, I have some Christian friends, and they're ok folk too. They don't follow "The Word" to the letter. They eat meat whenever they want, they eat shellfish, they don't own slaves, they don't acquire wives by raping women and then paying a fine for the virtue lost. Some of them have tattoos. They are sufficiently moral that they would be aghast and shocked if a tired man trying to sleep offered his virgin daughters to an angry crowd if they would just go away and let him get back to bed.

    You know – all that kooky crap in The Bible that's just… really antiquated and wrong.

    But I know some Christians who, while not following ALL of 'The Word', follow enough of that kooky crap to make them really unpleasant people. People who think anyone with less devotion than them, or worse, different or no devotion, are just resources to be harnessed or plundered and not really people at all. Converted or pillaged.

    This absolutely works… well, not both ways, but probably every way. I guess it's likely Buddhism lacks kooky parts that make ultra-orthodox Buddhists unpleasant in this fashion, but most every other widely followed religion has them.

  22. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:42 pm

    @Pete:
    > Some of them have tattoos.

    I think that most of what you're quoting comes from Leviticus (the
    "old covenant") which was explicitly superceded by Jesus in the New Covenant.

    Jews with tattoos are in doctrinal error, but Christians are not.

    > all that kooky crap in The Bible that's just… really antiquated and wrong.

    Thank you for providing an object lesson for my point above: most people who claim to follow a religion do nothing of the sort. "Antiquated" – what an amusing critique! I personally use a numeral system that's quite old, and the language I speak has nouns going back to the Indo European.

  23. TTC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:46 pm

    Does the film resolve the contretemps raised by this earlier thread? http://www.popehat.com/2012/09/09/inclination-action-and-justice-gawkers-pedophilia-article-and-the-angry-reactions-to-it/

    Was Mohammed merely attracted to Aisha, or….?

  24. Gavin  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:47 pm

    @TJIC:

    Good response. I see I'm not needed here to explain what "old" and "new" mean respectively when followed by the word covenant.

  25. Charley  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:47 pm

    @ZK

    Something along the lines of "Just because there are problems with the parts of ideology doesn't mean that it's reasonable for you to be a bigot and treat everyone who follows it (in any form) with hatred and intolerance."

  26. Farstrider  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:53 pm

    TJIC, as long as you impose that same standard on everyone — including people who view some of your Catholic views as just as heinous as you view some Muslim views — I do not see a problem. But if you are going to take offense by me saying equally harsh things about Catholics or their views as you say about Muslims and their views, then you really are a bigot.

  27. Ae Viescas  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:54 pm

    @Pete yeah, the problems with Buddhism are usually less about the orthodoxy and more about what happens when ANY religion marries the state. Not to say there aren't any.

  28. C. S. P. Schofield  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:55 pm

    TJIC,

    I must disagree with you, if only because there is a difference between mounting a scurrilous, if to some degree accurate, attack and opening a debate on the merits of two or more positions.

    The Thirty Years War was fought, in some part, because Western Europe had not yet learned to distinguish between prosthelytizing and persecuting. Learning to appreciate that difference cost the West hundreds of thousands of deaths.

    In a civil society, a man's religion is a matter between him and his God(s), and intruding on that relationship is rude. Now, rudeness should not be illegal. But it isn't completely acceptable.

    What really concerns me here is what concerned me (once I was old enough to not just emote about it) about the seizure of the embassy in Iran, and about the arrest if Pinochet. Diplomatic custom and usage are important. If SOMEBODY in authority had said something along the lines of "The film being protested is a tacky piece of drivel. Nonetheless, we expect the individuals responsible for the deaths of our embassy people to be caught and punished, and if the government of Egypt is unready to do this, then we will consider that they are at war with us.", I would be a great deal happier.

    Some behaviors are not to be tolerated amongst civilized people.

  29. sorrykb  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:57 pm

    @TJIC: I'm atheist, and to the best of my knowledge I have no soul that needs saving. To argue comparative merits of one set of religious beliefs over another seems to me a meaningless exercise.
    But if it makes you feel any better, I promise not to try to convert you.

  30. Ae Viescas  •  Sep 12, 2012 @1:57 pm

    @TJIC Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself a "doctrine-following" religious member, and if so, how's the act of not having a savings account or investment account (e.g. participating in usury) treating you?

  31. Christopher Swing  •  Sep 12, 2012 @2:00 pm

    Or for another example;

    It's possible to say that there is no excuse whatsoever for the quite possibly actionable threats of violence in response to speech these police don't like, and that the angry mob should be condemned without qualification, and still believe — and say — that these jerks in Tennessee putting a picture of the dead deputy and his friend they shot on a billboard are still assholes.

    http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/5942430-Deputys-killer-posts-photo-of-body-on-billboard/

    (For a non-religious example of the same idea. Also, policeone.com comments, allegedly only from actual cops, are always entertaining/frightening.)

  32. anonymouscoward  •  Sep 12, 2012 @2:25 pm

    (delurking here …)

    It doesn't help that speech that boils down to "I think Credo X is utterly full of it."

    … is hard to deliver without the subtext being: "You'd have to be an utter moron to believe that crap."

    … then black/white thinking results in the implication: "Believers in Credo X are morons."

    Granted, there are a lot of people out there bashing religions who come right out and say "if you believe in THAT you have GOT to be a moron!". So that isn't just an implication in some cases.

    > most people who claim to follow a religion do nothing of the sort.

    And to a large extent, that's not a problem. Most people I know who are practicing that kind of selective hypocrisy are practicing the bits that promote being a decent human being. They're usually saving the hypocrisy for not practicing the bits of their faith that make them impossible-to-live-with douchebags when dealing with the rest of the world.

    I'm really, really curious to see if that film ends up being a fake or not.

  33. Farstrider  •  Sep 12, 2012 @2:29 pm

    C. S. P. Schofield:
    Scurrilous attacks on religion ARE to be tolerated amongst civilized people. Violence is not.

  34. throwaway  •  Sep 12, 2012 @2:48 pm

    OT: Ken, please check your email. You should have one sent around 8:06pm your time last night, concerning ongoing SEO scam research. I know you're busy and I don't expect an immediate response. When you're ready I have fresh juicy details to pass on.

  35. Robert Burns Glennie  •  Sep 12, 2012 @2:49 pm

    Hello – haven't posted comments here before, but I feel I need to object to at least some part of the foregoing post.

    First – you are completely correct: there is no one else responsible for the violence that killed your ambassador to Libya, and three other embassy personnel, other than the vile bigots peddling "hate-smut" against the U.S. Period, full-stop.

    Second – the makers of the film that `provoked' this action are in no way responsible for the actions of the "hate-smut-peddlars" (to amplify on your terminology) in killing an ambassador and causing death to the others – period, full stop again, and to suggest otherwise, if wrong.

    Third – and this is something that was raised only obliquely here, but often explicitly elsewhere (ie. most places throughout the news media) that criticism of Islam, no matter intemperate, harsh or even unfair is not `racist' (as Muslims don't constitute a "race") nor is it (to use that ridiculous term) `Islamaphobic.'

    To attack a religion, any religion, is no way to attack all people who belong to that religion, any more than to attack savagely the Catholic church is to attack all Catholics – there is, in other words, no `Popeophobia' or `Romanophobia' or whatever stupid term that no doubt some Catholic apologist has dreamed up in the face of pedophile priest allegations and much else.

    Or, to refer to the succeeding post on this blog, that criticism of the Chinese Communist regime is an "attack on the Chinese people", as the consulate officials quoted would apparently have it.

    I don't expect this will occur, but now is the time for your president to put down that line in the sand which refuses to condemn the free speech of people in the face of savagery carried out by people with no respect at all for liberal-democratic values.

    thank you

  36. EH  •  Sep 12, 2012 @2:57 pm

    Ugh, it's a battle between the GYOFBs.

  37. bvierra  •  Sep 12, 2012 @3:11 pm

    @Adrian Ratnapala you can argue it is a good thing that words not said by the POTUS are being used against him but it means you are not looking at the big picture.

    Many would argue that both of the main political parties in the US bring a different set of ideals and skills to the table. By picking the best person for the job no matter what political party they are is not only the wise thing to do, but the American thing. If you say that you will hold against the POTUS something that was said by someone else that was in a different country even through the POTUS said that he does not agree with or support that message all you are doing is diving the country apart. You are making it so that the political parties will never use the best person for the job if they are of another political party because what they say may be used against you.

    If your argument is that only your political beliefs are correct and that anyone who disagrees is wrong, then I see why you believe this way. However if in fact you believe that somewhere in the middle of the extremes is the correct way because it is compromising and doing what the majority want, then your argument holds no water.

    @TJIC You can say whatever you wish because there are many out there that have already and are willing to die for your right to say it. But if you know it will get others killed and could care less because it is your right to say it, what does that say about you as a human being? The argument to do and say whatever you want, to hell with the consequences that others will face due to your selfishness is not just morally wrong but reprehensible. While you are at it why don't you start stealing the rounds that the soldiers use the defend themselves? You don't seem to care what happens to them as long as you get to say your piece.

    I think the freedom is speech is one of the greatest rights we as Americans have. I may hate your speech but as an American citizen you have the right to say it. At the same time you should the spine to back up your speech as well as speak it. If you are going to say / write / record something and immediately go into hiding why should anyone stand up for your right to speak it.

    I think that the Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most vial organizations out there. I am one of the first to go out and protest them when they come to town. On the other hand if the government decided to stop them from practicing their 1st Amendment right, I will be one of the first to defend that right.

    You want to know the difference between the two? As horrible as their speech is, they have the balls to go out there and speak it. The do not say something in an effort to get the US attacked then go into hiding till it blows over.

    If you have what it takes to support what you say, even if I don't like it, you have earned the right to continue to say it.

    I am sure that many will disagree with me as to needing to backup what you say, legally you are correct. We have laws in place that allow you to say as you wish and run away, we also have people that are supposed to protect that right (police, military, etc). I happen to currently not belong to either group so don't expect me to backup what you will not backup yourself.

  38. Grifter  •  Sep 12, 2012 @3:48 pm

    @bvierra:

    When you talk about people making comments "in an effort to get the US attacked then go into hiding till it blows over."….what are you talking about?

    I don't know of people saying the US is X,Y, or Z, or lying about national policy with the intent to get us attacked.

    I know of people who say things, under their own name, who have been threatened to the point where they had to go into hiding; which is not really any different than witness protection from the mob, philosophically, or domestic violence survivors (again philosophically, there are obvious differences).

    Can you clarify?

  39. Grifter  •  Sep 12, 2012 @3:52 pm

    On the subject of the post as a whole, I'm curious:

    Is "black and white" being equated to "zero-sum game"? While I think things are often more black and white than most people would like to admit, I rarely believe in the "zero-sum game" of one side must be right therefore the other side is all wrong.

  40. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @3:59 pm

    @SheriffFatman :

    > @TJIC: One possible distinction is that Nazism was homogeneous in a way Islam is not.

    Ah, so it would be bigotted to point out stupid or evil doctrines in Islam, but OK to point stupid or evil doctrines in Shia Islam ?

    > Nazism was whatever Hitler said it was; while Islam includes the
    > violent nutters in Benghazi at one end, and those who genuinely
    > believe in and practice a "religion of peace" at the other (e.g.,
    > Sufis).

    First, there is debate whether Sufism is properly considered Islam;
    many Muslims argue that it is not. Its position seems to be similar
    to that of Mormonism or Unitarianism in Christianity. It certainly is
    not a typical example of Islamic thought.

    That said, Islam is whatever the Koran says. Note that this is not my
    definition of Islam; this is Islam's definition of Islam.
    Judeo-Christians can agree to disagree by saying that a certain point
    of the Bible, while divinely inspired, was mistranscribed. Muslims
    can not.

    > Similarly, Christianity contains both those who reject violence in
    > any circumstances whatsoever (e.g., the Quakers), and those who
    > believe it is morally justifiable to shoot abortion doctors in the
    > head.

    In considering ideologies I'm happy to throw out any datapoints three
    or four standard deviations from the mean.

    Throw out a handful of abortion doctor killers ( and a handful is what
    it amounts to
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Murders ) and
    Christians are not particularly prone to religious violence. And, to
    the degree that they are, it tends to be in contradicting the tenets
    of their religion (recall that when Jesus was arrested, he berated a
    follower of his who caused a minor wound to one of the guards taking
    him to his death).

    Now, my point is not to engage in special pleading for Christianity -
    others can defend it, or not, as they see fit. My point is that this
    debate that you and I are having right now is entirely
    legitimate
    . It is good for you to say out loud that adherents of
    my religion bomb abortion clinics, and it is good for me to marshall
    facts to try to defend my religion.

    > Oh, and one of your posts seems to suggest that Nazism was atheistic. It wasn't.

    Say what you will, at least it's an ethos.

    @Gavin:

    > TJIC, Good response

    Thx!

    @Farstrider:

    > TJIC, as long as you impose that same standard on everyone —
    > including people who view some of your Catholic views as just as
    > heinous as you view some Muslim views

    I do.

    > I do not see a problem.

    Grteat.

    > But if you are going to take offense by me saying equally harsh things
    > about Catholics or their views as you say about Muslims and their
    > views, then you really are a bigot.

    I may or may not choose to take offense, but I will not (a) try to ban
    the speach, (b) try to kill the speaker, or (c) try to kill some
    unrelated third party.

    @ C. S. P. Schofield:

    > TJIC, I must disagree with you, if only because there is a
    > difference between mounting a scurrilous, if to some degree
    > accurate, attack and opening a debate on the merits of two or more
    > positions.

    I personally prefer reasoned debate over mud flinging, but – and I've
    already quoted him once before – Mencken had a great point that a
    scoff of disbelief is often worth a whole heck of a lot of arguing.

    Why is scoffing illegitimate?

    Is scoffing allowed in the political realm, but not the theological?

    Is scoffing only allowed if noone particularly minds?

    It is a useful and valid attack on Catholicism – which I
    hold dear – to say "all priests are pedophiles". It is factually
    incorrect, but it does a wonderful job of focusing attention on
    questions of hierarchy, obedience, lust for power, shame, etc.

    For me to say that no one can use snark or hyperbole to criticize my
    religion – or any other – is to seek the power of censorship.

    > In a civil society, a man's religion is a matter between him and his God(s)

    Asserted without evidence.

    > and intruding on that relationship is rude.

    You've just defined your preference as the only acceptable norm, and I don't see what justification there can be.

    One may hector others about what size soda they can drink, their
    weight, the material their grocery bag is made out of, the location of
    their houses, the size of their yards, and so on and so forth – but a
    man may not criticize another's definition of The Good?

    > Now, rudeness should not be illegal. But it isn't completely acceptable.

    Less than idealy stated, because it conflates two different axises. If you mean
    to say that there are things that are unsociable but legal, then we
    agree.

    > Diplomatic custom and usage are important.

    Agreed. They – like freedom of speech – provide an arena by which things can be debated without recourse to violence.

    @sorrykb:

    > I'm atheist, and to the best of my knowledge I have no soul that
    > needs saving. To argue comparative merits of one set of religious
    > beliefs over another seems to me a meaningless exercise.

    Sure.

    > But if it makes you feel any better, I promise not to try to convert you.

    Feel free. Dawkins, and others
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brights_movement have different utility
    functions, and that's all to the good. To the degree that they raise
    good points (mostly they don't) those points are useful to all.

    @Ae Viescas:

    > @TJIC Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself a "doctrine-following" religious member

    I am certainly a doctrine BELIEVING religious member. Like everyone, I fail to meet my own standards regularly.

    > and if so, how's the act of not having a savings account or
    > investment account treating you?

    Quite well! My net worth is pretty much my house, my business, four chords, and the truth.

    The chords and the truth seem to be keeping their value as the Blue Welfare State collapses.

    > (e.g. participating in usury)

    You are confused as to Catholicism's take on the matter.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm

    In the Christian era, the New Testament is silent on the subject; the
    passage in St. Luke (vi, 34, 35), which some persons interpret as a
    condemnation of interest, is only an exhortation to general and
    disinterested benevolence.

    @anonymouscoward:

    > It doesn't help that speech that boils down to "I think Credo X is utterly full of it."… is hard to deliver without the subtext being: "You'd have to be an utter moron to believe that crap."

    Excellent point.

    > > most people who claim to follow a religion do nothing of the sort.
    >
    > And to a large extent, that's not a problem.

    I agree. It was merely a statement of fact in service of another argument up above, not a call to arms.

    @ C. S. P. Schofield:

    > Scurrilous attacks on religion ARE to be tolerated amongst civilized people. Violence is not.

    100% agreed.

    @bvierra: • Sep 12, 2012 @3:11 pm

    > @TJIC You can say whatever you wish because there are many out
    > there that are willing to die for your right to say it.

    Not that many.

    Certainly not my chief of police.

    > But if you know it will get others killed and could care less
    > because it is your right to say it, what does that say about you as
    > a human being?

    You're arguing for the censor's veto.

    If anyone, anywhere, says "The Party says that I'm holding up five
    fingers Winston. If you dare utter the word 'four' I'll kill this
    child.", then it is my responsibility to never utter the word 'four'.

    I reject that.

    When someone says 'I'll kill someone unless you censor yourself", the proper reaction is to kill HIM.

    > The argument to do and say whatever you want, to hell
    > with the consequences that others will face due to your selfishness
    > is not just morally wrong but reprehensible.

    So speaking truth in a world where Muslims and other psychopaths exist is "selfish"?

    You are a coward and a moral weakling and I have nothing further to say to you.

  41. James Pollock  •  Sep 12, 2012 @4:12 pm

    "Second – the makers of the film that `provoked' this action are in no way responsible for the actions of the "hate-smut-peddlars" (to amplify on your terminology) in killing an ambassador and causing death to the others – period, full stop again, and to suggest otherwise, if wrong."

    Mr. Glennie, I disagree. Without discounting the wrong that accrues to those actually doing the violence, the analogy I would like to offer is this: Throwing rocks at a hornet's nest while others are nearby. While it IS the hornets that do the stinging and not the rock-thrower, it is still a predictable result of antagonizing a nest of hornets. No matter how justified one's dislike of hornets, no matter how justified one's flinging stones at their home, no matter how voluntarily the other people have submitted to the risk of hornet-sting, intentionally anatagonizing a hornet's nest while other people are nearby is still a moral wrong. Additionally, doing so while safely ensconced in one's reasonably hornet-proof home is cowardly, as well.
    Translating this analogy back into the real-world sounds something like this "dude, if you want to show how anti-Islam you are by burning some pages of the Koran in your safe haven in Florida, it is your right as an American. But if you do, you will make it hard for OTHER Americans to go about their business, and some of them may be harmed or killed. So… it's your right to do it, but if you do it, you're an asshole (and more than a bit of a chicken. Why don't you go to Mecca to pull your little stunt, and REALLY show them what you think?)

    If you take all the people in the world who are Muslims, most of them are perfectly reasonable human beings, and some of them are utter nutcases. This statement is true if you substitute any sufficiently large self-selecting group of human beings: Muslims, Christians, NASCAR fans, Texans, dentists, dog owners, Civil-War re-enactors, or whatever. I don't claim that the ratio of reasonable to unreasonable is the same for all of these groups, just that all of them have their own (sometimes overlapping) nutcase brigades.

  42. Ken  •  Sep 12, 2012 @4:21 pm

    @James:

    Mr. Glennie, I disagree. Without discounting the wrong that accrues to those actually doing the violence, the analogy I would like to offer is this: Throwing rocks at a hornet's nest while others are nearby.

    Let me ask you this: at what point is one's expression so relatively benign that one is no longer morally responsible for it? Put another way, at what point is one's behavior so innocuous that it is not one's moral responsibility if the wasps swarm?

    I think that people are willing to consider the moral responsibility argument because the video in question here is deliberately provocative. (Assuming, for the moment, that it's not a Reichstag Fire thing; the provenance of the video is apparently in doubt.)

    What if it were much more moderate? Am I morally responsible if fanatics respond violently to this? If extremists start to say "having a woman challenge a man on television is a deliberate provocation against Islam," and some female anchor on CNN asks tough questions of an Islamic leader in an interview, is CNN morally responsible if violence ensues?

    Wasps are not independent moral actors. But even if they were — if the neighborhood wasps were so agitated that they'd swarm and sting even if I leave the lights on after 9:00 p.m., am I morally responsible for that?

  43. Tarrou  •  Sep 12, 2012 @4:22 pm

    "Nuance" is the last refuge of a coward. Of course condemning violence doesn't preclude disliking prejudice. But here's the thing, "nuance" which cannot distinguish between violence and non-violence is no nuance at all, just abject ball-lessness. There is no comparison between shooting an extremely bad film and initiating an act of war in peacetime with a recent benefactor in an internal war. Otherwise George Lucas would be in the Hague right now. There is no "grey" here. This is one of those precious few situations that have no nuance, there is no "reasoned" ground to take. On the one hand you have murder, aggression and religious insanity, and on the other you have intellectual pluralism and freedom of speech. Sorry, I don't care how bad the speech is, those two things don't even exist in the same paradigm. Call it simplistic, but there is a time for perspicacity, and a time for punching fools in the mouth. And I have the grace to know the difference.

  44. M.  •  Sep 12, 2012 @4:29 pm

    As a teenager, I was interested in different religions, including Islam. My father is extremely anti-Islam (this was a couple of years before 9/11) and believes that all Muslims should be either forced to swear an oath of fealty to the U.S. or exterminated. When I insisted on the existence of peaceful, non-extremist Muslims and their right to freedom of religion, he beat me so severely that I ended up in the emergency room, then living with friends for a while.

    I'm an atheist, but I'd rather practice a religion than be the sort of overly antagonistic atheist who seems to review anyone who does practice religion as personally insulting their intelligence. I also have a soft spot for Islam that no amount of extremist nutjobbery will ever dispel. Religion is just a handy puppet for crazy and/or socioeconomic frustration; violence (and bigotry) are a choice that anyone can opt out of at any time.

  45. terryg  •  Sep 12, 2012 @4:51 pm

    its pretty funny watching christians, muslims and jews argue with each other over who has the best imaginary friend. for two reasons. firstly, its the same imaginary friend. secondly, their imaginary friend is just that – imaginary. there are no gods, religion is a mental illness.

  46. Phelps  •  Sep 12, 2012 @5:33 pm

    Mr. Glennie, I disagree. Without discounting the wrong that accrues to those actually doing the violence, the analogy I would like to offer is this: Throwing rocks at a hornet's nest while others are nearby. While it IS the hornets that do the stinging and not the rock-thrower, it is still a predictable result of antagonizing a nest of hornets.

    Nope. This is more like blaming Ralph Lauren for making that slutty dress, because if she hadn't been wearing it, he wouldn't have raped her.

    The movie was a pretext. The violence is for its own sake.

  47. princessartemis  •  Sep 12, 2012 @5:46 pm

    They are sufficiently moral that they would be aghast and shocked if a tired man trying to sleep offered his virgin daughters to an angry crowd if they would just go away and let him get back to bed.

    This is not the first time I have encountered this…"interpretation"…of what occurred in Sodom, but I am as baffled by it now as I have been in the past. Pete, if I may, where did you get the idea that such a thing was ever commanded in the Bible, and that Christians who do not do so are somehow not acting in accordance with the Bible?

    Re this;

    Wasps are not independent moral actors. But even if they were — if the neighborhood wasps were so agitated that they'd swarm and sting even if I leave the lights on after 9:00 p.m., am I morally responsible for that?

    Brings to mind Africanized honeybees.

  48. princessartemis  •  Sep 12, 2012 @5:46 pm

    *sigh* Forgot to close a tag.

  49. M.  •  Sep 12, 2012 @5:49 pm

    @terryg: Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about! Thanks for the demonstration.

  50. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @6:04 pm

    @terryg:

    > its pretty funny watching christians, muslims and jews argue with each other over who has the best imaginary friend.

    I had a great face-to-face conversation with an online friend ( http://thethinkerblog.com/ ) the other day. He's an atheist, I'm a theist, but we both agreed that rationalists (which we each try to be) have a failure mode: insulting instead of discussing. One example that came up was the knee-jerk inability of many atheists to let a reference to religion go past with out using the phrase "imaginary friend".

    I wonder why some atheists do this?

    Is it just the the fact that it's more fun to toss insults than it is to engage in debate?

    Or do they think that this is a Mencken-esque horse laugh, and that someone who carefully considered opinions on theology, teleology, and morality will say "Oh – I get it now. God is IMAGINARAY. DUH!" ?

    I do find it amusing that so few atheists use the same set of existence tests that they propose to use on God on other abstract concepts like, say, justice, or morality.

    Anyway, Terry G, do you assert that it's wrong, in any absolute sense, for me to torture your mother to death? Or is "wrong" an imaginary friend concept that is tasteless and odorless, and therefore does not exist?

    > for two reasons. firstly, its the same imaginary friend.

    Says who?

    Let us posit that God has no more existence than the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause. Are the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause the same [ fictional ] entity? Or, to substitute in other tasteless, odorless, massless concepts, are "justice" and "pi" the same entity? Or "art" and "sets that do not contain themselves" ?

    I suggest that the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause are not the same entity. Even though both have never been proven to have mass, length, or scent, the list of traits that are attributed to them are incompatible. Sanata Clause is not said to leave money under pillows, and the Tooth Fairy is not said to wear red winter clothing or travel by aerial sleigh.

    With that as a basis, who are you to say that Allah and the Christian God are the same entity?

    Mohammed, dictating the words of Allah, commands believers to cut the hands off of thieves and by doing that act, exalt Allah.

    Jesus, God himself instantiated in a human body, commanded people that they could only physically punish an adulterer if they themselves had never sinned (i.e. telling them that they could not punish the adulterer).

    Mohammed declared that a man could have many wives, and that men would have concubines in Heaven.

    Jesus claimed that the question of a man having wives in the afterlife was nonsensical and said "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven." Mark 12:25

    In thousands of different ways, over and over and over, Jesus and Mohammed preach different – and wildly incompatible – messages, and say wildly incompatible things about the deity they worship.

    Occam's razor tells us that these are different entities.

    > there are no gods, religion is a mental illness.

    One thing I admire about Brights is that they ruthlessly defend their points through logic – never the blind assertion for them, no sir!

    Anyway, thank you for joining our discussion.

  51. Lizard  •  Sep 12, 2012 @6:21 pm

    Yet, somehow, the Catholic Church has had no problem torturing and murdering people, getting their justification from the exact same Bible TJIC claims says such things are forbidden. How does that work, precisely?

    In any event, I submit that anyone who claims faith in any religion states, by implication, that believers in other religions are deluded, insane, or stupid. There is no such thing as religious tolerance without hypocrisy. Jesus either is the Messiah, or he isn't, and whichever one you believe, your very belief states all other beliefs are factually incorrect, and people hold factually incorrect beliefs because they are ignorant (in which case, you must educate them), stupid (incapable of being educated), or insane (incapable of distinguishing fact from illusion). Fortunately, hypocrisy in this area is a sign of sanity, and so, we all hypocritically go through life, walling off parts of our brain and not thinking too hard about things, that, if thought through, would probably lead to unpleasant consequences.

    The USS Enterprise (NCC-1701, no bloody A, B, C or D!) and Darth Vader's flagship, the Executor, are too very different craft in terms of their imaginary traits, but the most important trait they share is that they ARE imaginary, and that makes them far more alike than they are different. To be willing to resort to violence over whether Allah or Yahweh is better is every bit as moronic as resorting to violence over which of the two starships would win in a fight. (The Enterprise. Duh. The Executor uses *lasers*. Lightspeed weapons. Phasers can be used at warp speed, and thus, the Executor would be destroyed before the Enterprise even appeared on the scanners.)

    Ah, managed to find this. About 16 years old, but it's still true. http://mrlizard.com/OldSite/fictional.html

  52. M.  •  Sep 12, 2012 @6:29 pm

    @Lizard:

    "and people hold factually incorrect beliefs because they are ignorant (in which case, you must educate them)"

    Says who, exactly?

  53. C. S. P. Schofield  •  Sep 12, 2012 @6:46 pm

    TJIC.

    For the record, while I consider Scoffing legitimate. Rude, but legitimate. There is, after all, a time to be rude. Any time you are dealing with the Westboro Bab-tist Church, for example.

  54. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @6:53 pm

    @lizard:

    > Yet, somehow, the Catholic Church has had no problem torturing and
    > murdering people, getting their justification from the exact same
    > Bible TJIC claims says such things are forbidden. How does that
    > work, precisely?

    While the men and women who make up the Church are sinners, like the
    rest of us, and have committed all manner of evil, most of the torture
    and murder that you're ascribing to the Church was actually done by
    governments illegitimately claiming religious authority for their
    political ends. The Church acted to end the abuses.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

    The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition, commonly known as
    the Spanish Inquisition, was a tribunal established in 1480 by
    Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile. It
    was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms, and to
    replace the Medieval Inquisition which was under Papal control…

    Various motives have been proposed for the monarchs' decision to fund
    the Inquisition such as increasing political authority, weakening
    opposition, suppressing conversos, profiting from confiscation of the
    property of convicted heretics, reducing social tensions and
    protecting the kingdom from the danger of a fifth column.

    > In any event, I submit that anyone who claims faith in any religion
    > states, by implication, that believers in other religions are
    > deluded, insane, or stupid.

    Agreed…although the manner and degree to which others are wrong is
    quite important. As a Catholic I think that an Anglican is
    substantially more correct than a Nazi.

    > There is no such thing as religious tolerance without hypocrisy.

    What is hypocritical about tolerating error? I need not think that my
    Mormon neighbor is 100% theologically accurate to loan him my
    lawnmower and to wish him a good day.

    > Jesus either is the Messiah, or he isn't, and whichever one you believe, your very belief states all
    > other beliefs are factually incorrect

    Agreed.

    > and people hold factually incorrect beliefs because they are ignorant (in which case, you must educate them)

    Why do you assert that I must?

    I live among many people who have all manner of wrong beliefs (most of
    them relating to economics) and if I prioritized correcting them
    (assuming that correction even worked), I'd not have time to work or
    write.

    > Fortunately, hypocrisy in this area is a sign of sanity

    You've not yet demonstrated that there is any hypocrisy.

  55. Myk  •  Sep 12, 2012 @7:18 pm

    C.S.P. Schofield: "Maybe we should make war on them, to remind the world how truly unpleasant life can get when the niceties of diplomatic usage get ignored."

    Er….you've already done that, when America ignored the diplomatic niceties observed by the free world, disregarded and derided the UN and invaded Iraq – under fabricated and patently false pretences. How DID that work out, again?

    I'm noting a worrying pro-war, anti-reason tone in your recent postings; is everything OK?

  56. Phelps  •  Sep 12, 2012 @7:25 pm

    Er….you've already done that, when America ignored the diplomatic niceties observed by the free world, disregarded and derided the UN and invaded Iraq – under fabricated and patently false pretences. How DID that work out, again?

    Deposed a dictator, set up an autonomous free Kurdistan, and have had open and fair elections twice.

    Unless, you know, you are against rule of law, freedom and fair elections.

  57. TJIC  •  Sep 12, 2012 @7:52 pm

    @Myk:

    > disregarded and derided the UN and invaded Iraq

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_1441

    United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 is a United Nations Security Council resolution adopted unanimously by the United Nations Security Council on 8 November 2002, offering Iraq under Saddam Hussein "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" that had been set out in several previous resolutions (Resolution 660, Resolution 661, Resolution 678, Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, and Resolution 1284). [1]

    Resolution 1441 stated that Iraq was in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq's breaches related not only to weapons of mass destruction (WMD), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by Iraqi troops during the 1990–1991 invasion and occupation.

    > under fabricated and patently false pretences.

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    –President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

    "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
    –President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

    "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
    –Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

    "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
    -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

  58. Christopher Swing  •  Sep 12, 2012 @9:03 pm

    "I do find it amusing that so few atheists use the same set of existence tests that they propose to use on God on other abstract concepts like, say, justice, or morality."

    Those are all things we make up and define for ourselves and as a society. It's just that some people don't want to admit it about the god one.

    "Anyway, Terry G, do you assert that it's wrong, in any absolute sense, for me to torture your mother to death? Or is "wrong" an imaginary friend concept that is tasteless and odorless, and therefore does not exist?"

    If the only reason you have for not torturing someone's mother to death is what an invisible man in the sky told you, I'm afraid you're the scary person in the room.

  59. Gordon Clason  •  Sep 12, 2012 @10:41 pm

    You characterize Bacile as a bigot. Is that based on something other than the article in the Guardian? The article in the Guardian says the film depicts Mohammed as a fraud. Well, if anybody came to me today and told me that the angel Gabriel has told him things which nobody else could see or hear, I think I might call him a fraud unless he provided a little bit of evidence. Such as Gabrielle's passport or drivers license, perhaps. Maybe you believe that Gabriell goes around talking in people's heads, but I think that objective historical evidence does in fact portray Mohammed as a fraud.

    Then the article says that the movie portrays Mohammed as approving of child abuse. Well, historical facts seem to be on that side as well. Quran surah 65 goes into a lot of detail about how soon after divorce or widowing a woman can be married again. The details include specifics for those women who do menstruate, and for those who don't, both because of menopause and because they are too young yet to have menstruated. It also talks about the proper way to divorce a wife who is too young for menstruation, both if the husband has had sexual intercourse with her and if he has not.

    Mohammed married Aisha bint Abu Bakr when she was six (lunar) years old. Traditional sources state that the marriage was consumated when she was nine. Mohammed was 53 at the time.

    The Quran also has many references to Mohammed and young boys as well as depicting young boys and girls in Paradise, virgins ready for the ravishing.

    So, unless you know something further about the movie, I'm having difficulty deciphering how you arrive at the epithet "vile bigotted douchebag". Or do you consider people who report historical facts as bigots on general principles?

  60. James Pollock  •  Sep 12, 2012 @10:53 pm

    Ken asks me
    " at what point is one's expression so relatively benign that one is no longer morally responsible for it?"
    That's an easy one. You're ALWAYS morally responsible for WHATEVER you do.
    Consider: Sometimes we do damage to others with full intent of doing so. This is usually addressible through either criminal or tort law or both. And yes, this even works down all the way to hurt feelings, if the hurt is serious enough and the intent to do it is strong enough. Obviously, this reflects a belief formed through the years that a civilized society cannot survive if people are allowed to intentionally harm others without either a justification or a punishment. The punishment hasn't always been funded (and moderated) by society as a whole… usually it's been clan vs. clan seeking retribution for perceived wrongs… but where there is intent to harm and no consequences, we usually perceive this as a deficit of fairness.

    There can also be harm that was not intended. For example, when cultures meet, frequently there are things that are perceived as slights or insults in one culture but not the other; people in one culture may offend without meaning to out of simply not knowing that their action will not be perceived the same way across the cultural divide. (In the legal system, you can get this by crossing the state line… something legal on THAT side of the line might be illegal, even a felony, on THIS side of the line.) Here there is still a moral wrong that has been done, but this level of wrong may usually be absolved by apology… and of course it is impolite to refuse a sincerely-offered apology.

    So yes, whether one intended to insult is an entirely reasonable consideration in deciding whether to forgive, accept, or reject another's actions or words, and is relevant to deciding whether or not a person's (or group's) anger in response is justified.
    In short, if you set out to anger someone with your words, you sacrifice the right to complain that that someone is angered by your words. This DOES NOT justify any and all actions taken in anger (i.e., violence) but it IS relevant.

  61. bvierra  •  Sep 12, 2012 @11:33 pm

    I almost always refuse to touch the topic of Religion with a 10 foot pole due to the immediate animosity and even hate it tends to be followed by. However being that it seems to be pretty tame and an actual discussion here, let’s see how this goes.
    I was raised Catholic, baptized and confirmed and went every Sunday until I was 16. I honestly think they only reason I was able to go to church at all was because the Priest we had was one of the few people I ever knew in my life that understood me and never once expected me to just shut up and do as I was told. I also went to a Catholic private school up until 7th grade when I was kicked out for… questioning my religious teacher. It wasn’t the fact that I was rude (or at least this is how my Mother told me they explained it to her), the issue was I refused to take what they told me as truth when it made no sense to me. The Bible was never taught as a guide with stories, it was taught as what actually happened and let’s say that I was a detail oriented kid who could not continue in a lesson when I found an error in the teaching. After I was kicked out my parents had our local priest over for dinner and I sat down and talked with him for hours about what I had issues with. The one thing that stuck with me since that night was him looking at my parents after about an hour and a half of me questioning everything I had ever been taught and saying, “I have never had someone who has read and understood the Bible as well as your son, but while doing it question every piece of it”. He then said the one thing to me that made more sense than anything else, “The Bible is a set of stories that were passed down from generation to generation and translated from different languages. The exact words you read may not be what happened, but the basis is in the message you get from the story you are reading”. Not only did it all make sense right then and there, but it made me stop questioning it. Once I was finally told not to take this literally but to take them for what they are, guidelines I actually was happy with the church.
    A few years later (when I was 16) my Father died, that was the last time I went into a church for service. At first it was because I lost my faith, but as time went on I joined the military and was able to actually see people from all walks of life and all religions I came to the conclusion that the entire reason Religion was made was not because this is what happened, but because people had to have something to believe in, a reason to exist. The elders could not explain (and sometimes we still cannot explain) why fire was hot, or the sun rose every day but little sh!t heads like me always wanted answers.
    There is a saying that no one is an atheist in a foxhole. I truly believe that when your life is on the line, people are dying around you, you need something to make sense of it all. Personally for me I find peace in science and numbers, not knowing means there is much life still ahead, if not for me than for others.
    To this day I cannot say if there is a deity or not, but I can say without a doubt we don’t know everything yet, so how could we know. I can also see how people need something to believe in when they are feeling down or that they need to know a loved one is going somewhere after they die. I made peace with myself many years ago, death does not scare me. For me knowing I was here, a tiny speck on the timeline is more than enough for me, because without all of those tiny specs you have nothing.
    Every religion is based on events that happened, rules that you should live by, and how to treat others. At the same time every religion has something that makes me sit there and go, really you believe that… how naive can someone be to believe that. But at the same time it works for them and if it makes them happy, all the more power to them.
    The real issue is not religion, it is (at least IMHO) the extremists that are charismatic and are able to lead those that need someone to follow. I am sure most here can agree with the fact that there are 2 main types of people in life, leaders and followers. I personally can be happy on my own for days, if you want to follow me as I do what I do, go right ahead. I also know many people who have trouble making decisions and need someone else to tell them what to do.
    To try and blame any 1 religion for any issue in life just shows that you are ignorant. You can take a sentence have 10 different people read it and have multiple meanings come out of it. This happens especially when things are taken without context, ie reading a Bible where each sentence means its own thing rather than looking at the story as a whole. Leaders tend to have a higher IQ, they know how to take a single sentence and make it say what they want and then take another sentence and say ohh no, this is in this context that is why you are wrong when you read it along.
    Followers do what followers do and listen to those that lead. The issue comes down to when you isolate a group for long enough, the bad leaders will rise because they will crush the good ones in one way or another and the followers will end up following the only leader left. When you have conflicting messages with many leaders all arguing over who is right in a much larger situation the ‘bad’ leaders are unable to crush the ‘good’ ones as easily since so many others are around to see it.
    To argue all of Islam is bad because of this group is incorrect. The issue is not only how to get some away from that group but also make sure their children do not grow up to follow in the same footsteps as their parents.
    This I believe is the issue that tends to haunt us today because it is not easy. If you just kill the leaders, more rise up. But you cannot change the children while they follow in their parents footsteps. Also if you kill the parents, it for some reason makes the children hate you, go figure.
    If you have an answer as to how this can be done without fail, I am sure you have multiple peace prizes, a presidency, and a place in the history books set aside for you. Until then all we can do is try and fail knowing that each failure is a speck on the timeline of humanity.

  62. bvierra  •  Sep 13, 2012 @2:36 am

    BTW I just received my nightwatch report. It has some good coverage of Egypt/Libya which goes far beyond the religion as the reasoning behind it. Parts of this probably deserve to go in the other post, but it's 2am and I am tired :)

    For those interested here is some excerpts:

    Egypt:
    Had the Mursi government begun to deliver on its promises of more jobs, theoretically, the unemployed and under-employed youth would have been asleep in anticipation of going to work. The unemployment rate for men under 35 is about 50%.

    It is a negative commentary about the job creation accomplishments of the Mursi government to date that so many men have nothing to do in Cairo but vent their frustrations. In Egypt there is no penalty for destroying a foreign embassy, but criticism of President Mursi is a criminal offence. That explains why Egyptian men would judge they could attack the US embassy, when their real target should have been the Mursi government.

    The protestors said, in paraphrase, that they understand the US has freedom of speech; the US needs to understand that they have freedom of action. Theirs is a claim to justify lawlessness granted by the Mursi government as long as the violence is not turned against Mursi.

    [Ambassador Patterson] did not permit US Marine guards to carry live ammunition, according to USMC blogs. Thus she neutralized any US military capability that was dedicated to preserve her life and protect the US Embassy.

    In this respect, she did not defend US sovereign territory and betrayed her oath of office. She neutered the Marines posted to defend the embassy, trusting the Egyptians over the Marines.

    Readers, by definition, whenever an embassy of any country is overrun by locals in any country, everyone knows that the ambassador and senior staff must be replaced.

    When NightWatch wrote last night, every news channel carried video footage of the violation of the US Embassy; the destruction of the Embassy's US flag; the raising of the Islamic flag – not the al Qaida flag, mind you – and the burning of the US flag.

    AFTER those events, the news services carried Ambassador Patterson's denunciation of Americans at fault. Ambassador Patterson at no time denounced in public the Islamists who violated her Embassy.

    Subsequently, Twitter and Facebook postings by the Cairo embassy, after the Libyan catastrophe was reported in the press, insisted that the Americans were wrong for hurting the feelings of the Muslims, despite the loss of life in Benghazi. Patterson's embassy astonishingly continued to try to minimize the loss of American life and to justify the acts of the Egyptian and Libyan crazies by blaming Americans.

    In an earlier era, less politically correct, old time professionals would have called this clientisis – falling in love with one's client. It is similar to Stockholm syndrome and is an occupational hazard of US diplomats. The US Embassy staff in Cairo has it, based on public, twitter and facebook postings.

    The bottom line is that some deferential, weak US diplomats have done more to encourage anti-American outbursts and to promote the perception of US weakness and subservience to Muslims than US citizens exercising free speech. They need to be vetted and replaced because they do not speak for us.

    Libya:
    Multiple sources have reported more details on the events that led to the death of Ambassador Stephens. The details suggest this was another case of well-intentioned but misguided hubris by Americans, as to their own safety, and well-aimed and well- targeted attacks by the Muslim attackers. This appears, in fact, to have been a deliberate assassination of an effective diplomat, within the cover of an anti-US demonstration in Benghazi.

  63. Robert Burns Glennie  •  Sep 13, 2012 @3:38 am

    James Pollock who disagrees:

    "…the analogy I would like to offer is this: Throwing rocks at a hornet's nest while others are nearby…"

    I understand the value of analogy; however, this makes even less sense than the old pro-censorship chestnut `you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre'.

    Well – yes you can, if there is a fire… second, it is even clear (as one of the Volokh conspirators stated some time ago) that the actual action of yelling fire *falsley* in a crowded theatre is actually illegal … and lastly, the analogy was dreamt up by Wendell Holmes to justify the U.S. government's crackdown on pacifist speech it didn't like during World War I. Not a very good precedent, I should say, to couch opposition to speech-liberty…

    As for the `hornets' analogy… well, Muslims aren't hornets; poking a stick at a hornet's nest is action, as opposed to speech (and yes, I am aware that there is often a blurring of these distinctions); third, at some point … and I hope to Jove that this point is exactly right now (again, though, judging from the response from much of the news media, as well as high officials in the U.S. government with their condemnations of those who `hurt the religious feelings of others'), that those who do believe in not only particular instances of free speech, but free speech as a human right and valued principle in any liberal democracy, will stand up and say, simply, `NO.'

    That is, `No: your outrage about someone depicting your Prophet (or whatever the case may be) in an unflattering light does NOT give you some right to attack others against whom you feel aggrieved – be it the U.S. ambassador or any Joe / Jane Schlub on the street – and we are NOT going to apologize, sympathize, attempt to understand your grievances when you behave like this. We are not going to be quiet because we are afraid of your reactions. If you choose to act detrimentally to others, because of your outrage about someone else's speech, then there are consequences to that.'

    This is not `heckler's veto' we're talking about here – as bad as that is. This is `thug's veto' and it is intolerable.

    But as I said, I'm not optimistic that pres Obama or his secretary of state will take that stand. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

    thank you

  64. TJIC  •  Sep 13, 2012 @4:37 am

    @bvierra:

    > To argue all of Islam is bad because of this group is incorrect.

    I agree with you.

    I argue that Islam is wrong because it has a deeply embedded moral
    system that is antithetical to what I believe to be good.

    > To try and blame any 1 religion for any issue in life just shows
    > that you are ignorant.

    Has anyone here tried to argue that? I think you're attacking strawmen.

  65. Paul Taylor  •  Sep 13, 2012 @4:45 am

    I'm sure the average Egyptian, who's earning $2 a day and has no socioeconomic support structure aside from the religious one, will feel properly chastised by all this latte-fueled indignation once he gets on the interwebs to read it…

  66. Lizard  •  Sep 13, 2012 @5:47 am

    "What is hypocritical about tolerating error? I need not think that my
    Mormon neighbor is 100% theologically accurate to loan him my
    lawnmower and to wish him a good day."

    People use "tolerance" in very different ways in this forum, as seen. Also as seen, no amount of explanation of how one person uses the word ever seems to make a dent in how the other person uses the word.

    If you believe that following a false religion condemns a soul to *eternal* torment, I do not see how you can sit back and let people preach false religions. Indeed, this is why your church burned heretics, because the harm a heretic could do to an innocent was far greater than murder. If you REALLY believed that your neighbor was going to convince people of falsehoods that would send them to hell for eternity, you would not permit him to do so, any more than you'd permit him to walk door to door and shoot people in the face if you had any means to stop him. (Or at least, you'd call the police and let them handle it.)

    As CS Lewis said:"We have not outgrown burning witches. We have outgrown believing in witches."

    Your statements of toleration on this forum would have you tortured and killed if you'd made them in 1500, by people who read the same Bible you do, but were much less hypocritical about it. Hypocrisy is not a bad thing, I repeat. Indeed, I think human society could not exist without it. We must have ideals of equal justice for all and objective standards for our society to exist, and we must also constantly and without conscious thought bend, ignore, or reinterpret rules when they come to our friends, family, and lovers. The constant dissonance between what our higher brains set as ideals and what our lower brains compel us to do in practice forms the wonderful abomination that is us. (As two simple proofs: We state all life is of equal worth, but I am a few infinities more likely to donate a kidney to save the life of my wife or a close friend than I am to help a stranger, thus proving I believe some lives are worth more than others, despite my acknowledgment of the value of the ideal that they are not. As a second proof, consider how you'd react if you found a close friend had committed a minor crime, say, shoplifting a 5.00 item, vs. how you'd react if a stranger did it. Can you honestly say you'd be equally likely to turn them in to the police? You might be angry with your friend or reconsider your friendship, but your instinct would be to give them as much benefit of the doubt as was possible, or to warn them "Don't do it again, or I will tell the cops", or whatever.)

    (IAE, most of the topics in this thread have devolved to already solved problems — that is, to everyone going to their default fallback rhetoric I've heard way too many times for it to be interesting. I like debates when I can hear viewpoints, spins, and takes I haven't heard before. So, rather than just restate my own fallback rhetoric for the umpty-zillionth time (approaching the quarter century mark for net debate), I'll just let y'all have fun.)

  67. Jenny  •  Sep 13, 2012 @6:08 am

    This is not `heckler's veto' we're talking about here – as bad as that is. This is `thug's veto' and it is intolerable.

    Amen.

    Muslim people are not hornets. They have the same capacity for self restraint in the face of insults as any of us. The racist/bigoted stance is the one that denies that ability, not the one that expects and demands it.

    Thugs are thugs, regardless of whether they're wrapped in an Al Queda banner or punching down the light-wristed gay guy.

    Or you know – both.

  68. TJIC  •  Sep 13, 2012 @6:37 am

    @lizard:

    > > "What is hypocritical about tolerating error?
    >
    > People use "tolerance" in very different ways in this forum

    I strive to use all terms as defined by the dictionary.

    Note:

    tol·er·ate – v –

    Allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.

    Accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance.

    and

    hyp·o·crit·i·cal – adj -

    the pretense of having virtues, beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually possess

    So. If I tolerate the practice of Islam, Mormonism, etc. with out interfering with it, how, exactly, does this constitute me pretending to have virtues or beliefs that I do not actually possess?

    I suggest that your use of "hypocritical" was incorrect – the reaching for a familiar and comfortable cudgel to rhetorically go after theists – and your best approach is probably to retract the assertion, but if you truly believe that I'm a hypocrite (according to actual definitions) I'd like to hear how.

    > Also as seen, no amount of explanation of how one person uses the
    > word ever seems to make a dent in how the other person uses the
    > word.

    I have not seen that. So far I believe that (a) I am using the word correctly, (b) you are using the word incorrectly, (c) no one but me has explained what definition is being used.

    > If you believe that following a false religion condemns a soul to *eternal* torment

    I do not.

    The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

    > I do not see how you can sit back and let people preach false religions.

    For two reasons:

    1) Freedom. I believe that God created us first and foremost as moral beings who are free to choose between error and heterodoxy. I respect God's creation by tolerating others when they are in error.

    2) Pragmatism. Censorship is the reaction of the party with the weakest argument. Confidence belongs to those who know that they're right. In the Cold War the Communists jailed anyone who explained (quite correctly) how communism was evil, while the West allowed their communists to preach. Most Western communists now slink around with their tales between their legs. Their arguments convinced almost no one.

    I believe that the message of Jesus and God are crisp, clear, and right, and they will convince most people who pay honest attention to them and think deeply.

    I believe that the messages of Islam, Mormonism, etc. are buggy and will not convince most people who pay honest attention to them and think deeply.

    Why would I want to give a flawed ideology a rhetorical megaphone by trying to surpress it?

    > Indeed, this is why your church burned heretics, because the harm a
    > heretic could do to an innocent was far greater than murder.

    That fact that someone else believed that God commanded them to burn heretics does not mean that I have to agree with their interpretation of the doctrine.

    > If you
    > REALLY believed that your neighbor was going to convince people of
    > falsehoods that would send them to hell for eternity, you would not
    > permit him to do so

    There are flaws in your logic.

    > any more than you'd permit him to walk door to door and shoot
    > people in the face if you had any means to stop him

    This is a flawed analogy because it treats the doctrine-spreader as being in full control of the outcome and the doctrine-receiver as having no free will.

    A better analogy is a door to door cigarette salesman. He is trying to persuade people to take up a habit that will be bad for them. Most people will decline his offer.

    > (Or at least, you'd call the police and let them handle it.)

    Oh, I certainly wouldn't call the police.

    > As CS Lewis said:"We have not outgrown burning witches. We have outgrown believing in witches."

    Yes. Now we (i.e. government) burn other things.

    > Your statements of toleration on this forum would have you tortured
    > and killed if you'd made them in 1500, by people who read the same
    > Bible you do

    Perhaps true.

    This has no bearing on my argument though.

    > consider
    > how you'd react if you found a close friend had committed a minor
    > crime, say, shoplifting a 5.00 item, vs. how you'd react if a
    > stranger did it. Can you honestly say you'd be equally likely to
    > turn them in to the police?

    I consider police to be a gang of angry, thieving thugs who use force against the innocent, so I'd likely alert the police to neither event.

  69. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @7:01 am

    @TJIC:

    Aren't you being a bit disingenuous? Lizard explained exactly how it seemed hypocritical to Lizard: That you cannot believe in eternal damnation as an unpleasant and eternally bad thing, and also tolerate false religions, because if you truly believed that someone was causing people to be eternally punished, anything temporal you did to prevent it couldn't possibly be anywhere near as bad.

    I'm making no comments as to the validity of the argument necessarily, just that it seemed pretty clear to me how Lizard was using hypocritical, in that you would be saying all the false religions go to hell, but not possibly believing it.

    hyp·o·crit·i·cal – adj -

    the pretense of having … beliefs… that one does not actually possess.

    To attempt an analogy, it would be like if you said torture was bad, and you knew for an absolute fact that someone would be tortured to death if they went through a specific door, and that if they went through a different door, they'd get nothing but blowjobs and ice cream. If someone was standing by these doors, trying to convince people to go through the torture-to-death door, and all you had to do was say "please stop", wouldn't you obviously do it? (In this case, of course, the torture is not eternal, so therefore I had to find a prevention that was comparable to temporal actions vs. eternal ones).

  70. Gavin  •  Sep 13, 2012 @7:05 am

    I'm not sure what the difficulty is in accepting that Islam is an inherrently violent religion. Both in it's Qur`an and in the Sunnah/Hadiths (it seems people here don't realize that Islam has two sources of faith that their laws are based on. It's not just one book.), violence is regularly taught and within 100 years of the religion's inception they were already invading Spain. Their Prophet regularly led them into battle and they conquered Mecca with him.

    People are quick to point out atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity but that does not say anything about the religion itself (the New Covenant contains no calls to violence and only calls to love, turning the other cheek, and going the extra miles for those who would take advantage of us) and it does not say anything about the claim that Islam does contain verses of extreme violence as well as nations that are currently performing the same atrocities that Christianity of the middle ages is accused of.

    Is deflection considered to be a legitimate point of debate now?

  71. Gavin  •  Sep 13, 2012 @7:11 am

    I'd guess, if I were a betting man, that it is so difficult to accept that Islam is a violent religion because so many people are being assholes to Muslims and admitting Islam's flaws would just be fueling their fire.

    That's not a legitimate reason. I have several Muslim friends who are incredibly kind and peaceful. Such is the average American Muslim. I condemn prejudice against Muslims, but that doesn't mean we should ignore what its religion teaches. It directly informs the laws of their government and so results in true attacks on civil rights and very real discrimination.

    We should recognize the dangers of the religion with one hand and specifically reject/condemn those who would persecute Muslims with the other. As this article states, there is a lot of nuance in the World. We can say that Islam teaches serious violence and discrimination but also say that there are many peaceful Muslims, particularly here in America.

  72. TJIC  •  Sep 13, 2012 @7:25 am

    @Grifter:

    > Aren't you being a bit disingenuous? Lizard explained exactly how it
    > seemed hypocritical to Lizard: That you cannot believe in eternal
    > damnation as an unpleasant and eternally bad thing, and also
    > tolerate false religions, because if you truly believed that someone
    > was causing people to be eternally punished, anything temporal you
    > did to prevent it couldn't possibly be anywhere near as bad.

    I understand the words, but as a syllogism – and more generally, as an argument – it fails.

    "anything temporal you did to prevent it couldn't possibly be anywhere near as bad."

    Yes, perhaps. My failure to beat up a Muslim preacher might, possibly, increase the chances that a soul will go to Hell.

    I don't perfectly agree with that, but let's posit that.

    OK. Now hows does that make me a hypocrite ? So what virtue, belief or principle do you suggest that I pretend to have that I do not actually have?

    There's a missing axiom in his (and your) argument. Your axiom is, I think, "it is my duty – even to the point of causing violence – to keep every single other soul out of Hell."

    I do not hold that axiom, nor do I claim to hold that axiom.

    So, again, what virtue, belief or principle do you suggest that I pretend to have that I do not actually have?

    > To attempt an analogy, it would be like if you said torture was bad,
    > and you knew for an absolute fact that someone would be tortured to
    > death if they went through a specific door

    Again, with out an axiom saying that I have to use violence to stop someone from going through that door, you haven't constructed an argument that says I'm behaving hypocritically.

  73. John Burgess  •  Sep 13, 2012 @8:04 am

    As a retired State Dept. officer who served primarily in the Middle East, I'm well aware of State's dysfunctions. This case, however, is not an instance of that.

    The press release put out by the Embassy in Cairo was wrong. But State told the writer of that release that it was wrong and told him to not release it until it had been fixed. The officer involved chose to ignore this directive and issued it anyway. He later went on to support his statement in a series of tweets.

    The statement may well have reflected this officer's views, but it did not reflect actual State Dept. or USG policy.

    http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/12/inside_the_public_relations_disaster_at_the_cairo_embassy

    The problem is that when a State Dept. officer abroad says anything, including expressing his personal opinion, it is assumed to be (or can be made to appear to be) official policy. This is why foreign service officers are told, repeatedly, that they are not to express personal opinions about matters of policy.

    When this story first broke, I assumed that the Tweets and all were coming from a junior officer's muddled understanding of American values and the US Constitution. I was appalled to learn that instead it came from a career member of the Senior Foreign Service with many years in Public Diplomacy.

  74. Gavin  •  Sep 13, 2012 @8:17 am

    @Grifter and Lizard:

    Aren't you being a bit disingenuous? Lizard explained exactly how it seemed hypocritical to Lizard: That you cannot believe in eternal damnation as an unpleasant and eternally bad thing, and also tolerate false religions, because if you truly believed that someone was causing people to be eternally punished, anything temporal you did to prevent it couldn't possibly be anywhere near as bad.

    If that's all Christians believed then yes, anything one did would be justified. But we also believe that you can't force someone to believe something. Christ also regularly told people the truth and then moved on whether or not they believed. Likewise, when He sent people out to witness, He gave clear instructions for them to just move on if they wouldn't have them.

    "Matt 10:14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town."

    So you see, our scriptures carry in them instructions and examples of what to do if someone doesn't listen. just move on.

    Likewise, scripture teaches us that performing bad actions to further the kingdom is condemned:

    Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
    Rom 3:6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?

    So you see, we have explicit orders not to do evil to bring about good and not to try to force ourselves on those who would not have us. As TJIC has said, it is not our responsibility to keep people out of Hell. It is our responsibility to live as a positive example of love as a witness and in doing so give people a choice.

    With these rules/parameters in place, the real question is whether or not it would be unjust to at least try to share our faith if we believed in Hell. I would posit that it would be unjust. As Penn Jillette (of the Penn and Teller duo who is a known Atheist), stated, "If you believe that there’s a heaven and hell and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life or whatever…and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward…how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize?"

    http://pastorbillcooper.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/penn-jillette-of-penn-and-teller-and-witnessing/

    That's it. We are supposed to offer, but not force. To paraphrase John Howard Yoder (a man who had his own problems but was a good Christian Philosopher), it's NOT our job to take over society and impose our convictions and values on people who don't share our faith as so many people seem to be trying to do. It's simply to be the best witness we can be, taking every advantage of opportunities to show love and to do good works. Our responsibility it simply to be the Church and to let you know you're welcome. I agree that vast majoriteis of Christians have failed at this, but please do not hold their actions against me just as I do not hold Islam's violent teachings against peaceful adherrents of the faith.

  75. Gavin  •  Sep 13, 2012 @8:19 am

    @John Burgess,

    Very interesting, it was a cog in the wheel and not the wheel itself. May I ask where you found that he'd been told not to release that until it was fixed?

  76. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @9:13 am

    @Gavin and TJIC:

    The argument Lizard presented was:

    If you believe X, you can't allow Y. If you allow Y, therefore you cannot really believe X.

    If true, it would, in fact be hypocrisy. The fact you can argue against it (and you can) doesn't make it NOT a cohesive argument.

  77. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @9:35 am

    @Gavin:

    You've also fallen into your trap of sounding like you're speaking for every Christian again: "But we also believe that you can't force someone to believe something."

  78. TJIC  •  Sep 13, 2012 @10:02 am

    @Grifter:

    > The argument Lizard presented was:
    >
    > If you believe X, you can't allow Y. If you allow Y, therefore you
    > cannot really believe X.
    >
    > If true, it would, in fact be hypocrisy. The fact you can argue against
    > it (and you can) doesn't make it NOT a cohesive argument.

    No.

    Lizard first said:

    1) you, TJIC, have asserted that you believe X
    2) you, TJIC, do not take action Y
    3) therefore you are a hypocrite

    This fails to be a syllogism. It is, as they say, "not even wrong".

    He later clarified:

    1) you, TJIC, have asserted that you believe X
    2) I, Lizard, declare that contrary to the evidence, that belief in X mandates action Y
    3) you, TJIC, do not take action Y
    4) therefore you are a hypocrite

    This is an improvement.

    It has now graduated from "not even wrong" to "wrong".

    @Gavin demolished point #2 in the argument.

    I reassert my point above: it is an unexamined tool of atheist debate to declare that theists are hypocrites, often (a) without defining hypocrisy (or without defining it correctly), and (b) without understanding the factual basis on which they declare hypocrisy.

    It's a cheap and easy tool, and a lot of fun to use, and it usually gets cheers from the crowd.

    That doesn't mean that it's rhetorically appropriate or logically correct.

  79. James Pollock  •  Sep 13, 2012 @10:36 am

    Jenny said:
    "Muslim people are not hornets."
    Um, duh. Unfamiliar with the word "analogy"?

    "They have the same capacity for self restraint in the face of insults as any of us."
    True. Alas, people individually and people in a mob are vastly different animals. The key word in the phrase "mob of Muslim protesters" is not "Muslim", it's "mob". Treating the members of a mob like they are calm, rational individuals is, um, unlikely to be successful.

    "The racist/bigoted stance is the one that denies that ability, not the one that expects and demands it."
    Again, people of any race, gender, or culture are capable of devolving into a mob.

  80. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @10:53 am

    @James Pollock:

    I think the issue of your analogy was its removal of moral agency. The fact that we understand mob psychology does not excuse the individuals of the mob for their action.

  81. Gavin  •  Sep 13, 2012 @11:15 am

    @Grifter:

    Not really, Y is predicated on a strawman. The idea that Christians are responsible for keeping people from going to Hell is a misunderstanding of Christian tradition, again, I point to the scriptures and examples I presented. If you have any particular contest with the evidence I gave then please feel free to bring it up. Otherwise, I'm forced to believe you're just debating a strawman and not me.

    As for me not being able to speak on behalf of Christians, I am merely presenting what scriptures say. In trying to spring a trap on me you are also catching yourself (if you in fact catch me) because you're making a claim about what "we" believe too, like your claim can possibly apply to all areas of Christianity. So which is it, are we both in a trap or are we both just speaking in generalities as best as we can?

    I'm presenting what our scriptures say. I cited it, you can read it yourself. Those scriptures are really the only "golden" standard Christians have to go by. Do you have an alternate belief founded in scripture whereby we must tie someone down and force them to believe with a sword? Even Islam teaches against faith by compulsion. If I present scripture where Christ teaches followers to not stay with those who will not hear them and cite examples where Christ Himself did the same does that not bear any weight to the discussion? If not, then I don't see how a fact-based discussion may be had that isn't just a pissing-on-religoin competition. I get that a lot of self proclaimed "religious" people have failed to maintain the "don't be a dick" philosophy, but this should make the actual facts that may be obtained somehow null.

    As for what we believe, I happen to have studied a significant number of beliefs. Granted, my studies focused on the first 1,300 years of Christianity and then a particular area of interest in 16th century, but I have still kept abreast of more modern theologies. Any position stating that we can force someone to believe would not only be in the EXTREME minority but would completely fall away from nearly all teachings of the church with regards to salvation by faith. When I say "we" it is generally to indicate the majority or the group considered to be within the pale of orthodoxy. If you hear me say something that you disagree would qualify as a mainstream belief then by all means correct me and cite your reason for disagreement. Until such a time, it should not be presumed that I am incorrect in my positions.

  82. Gavin  •  Sep 13, 2012 @11:19 am

    TJIC has the right of it, Y here is a strawman. Unless Lizard or Grifter claims to have greater authority on the subject than the evidence we presented, such as the instructions of our founder on how to respond to refusal to listen to our "good news".

  83. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @11:41 am

    @Gavin,

    I am not defending the idea at all, as I said. I am simply saying that it seemed as though TJIC was pretending not to understand how what Lizard was positing (regardless of its truth) was hypocrisy, and I was saying that, IF YOU ACCEPT THE PREMISES, which of course you don't have to, that the conclusion does follow, so to say Lizard doesn't understand the definition seems disingenuous.

  84. James Pollock  •  Sep 13, 2012 @11:55 am

    "I think the issue of your analogy was its removal of moral agency. The fact that we understand mob psychology does not excuse the individuals of the mob for their action."

    Um, where did I remove moral agency? I thought we'd settled the principle that people who engage in mob violence are responsible for their actions from the start, and therefore focused on the question of whether the person who intentionally antagonizes the mob ALSO bears moral responsibility for the result.

    I mean, we know that this movie was only a tangential trigger… nearly all of the world's billion or so Muslims said a collective "whatever" on the subject. It's probably pointless to try and figure out what the Cairo mobs were "really" angry about (not that pundits won't try, putting their ideological spin on it) but where you have an intentional attempt to provoke an angry mob, it really has no practical difference to provoking an angry animal. Don't poke the bear with a stick. Don't stick your hand in the rattlesnake's den. There are predictable results. The fact that we don't blame the bear for being a bear but we do blame the humans for being a mob doesn't change the fact that there are predictable results for antagonizing either.

  85. Todd E  •  Sep 13, 2012 @11:57 am

    I think that an essential issue here is that if I know that taking action X is very likely to result in action Y on behalf of a specific group, then perhaps I need to alter or ameliorate action X.

    If I know that there are things that will specifically offend a specific audience, and they are an audience which is not actually restricted by my cultural mandates (i.e., showing an image of Mohammed, and making it clear that it's Mohammed, and then making sure that people who aren't in America and aren't covered by the bill of rights, due process, etc. see it) and can thus do terrible things with it…

    Well, A. was it necessary to graphically depict this? That quickly gets into propoganda territory, and it's difficult to argue that that's art or free speech or anything like that. when your target audience is specifically people in other countries who tend to react violently to that kind of content, and you admit outright that that's your objective…

    At some level, that's an act of terrorism. We live in a global world. We cannot use local defenses for why we can act globally and then not reap the fruits of said action. Or as a favorite author of mine says "will you nurture the children of your actions?"

    Of course, when you throw in the possibility that the author doesn't exist, and this is being used as a means to incite riots and blame them on the U.S., then we get into very different, and much more globally dangerous territory…

    If the enemy of the U.S. at this point is thousands of unemployed men under 30 who know how to mess around with clips and youtube, how do you wage war on them in a just fashion? This isn't about revenge anymore, this is about being a responsible participant in the global conversation/community…

  86. TJIC  •  Sep 13, 2012 @12:36 pm

    @Todd E:
    > was it necessary to graphically depict this?

    No. No speech is ever necessary.

    Thats an irrelevant metric, though.

    > That quickly gets into propoganda territory

    Propaganda! On noz!

    prop·a·gan·da – n –
    noun
    1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
    2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
    3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.

    or, in other words, "speech".

    > and it's difficult to argue that that's … free speech or anything like that.

    So in your world speech is only allowed if it either contains no ideas, or contains only ideas that can not help or harm a movement or institution?

    Be careful the next time you're tempted to pass along a joke about a politician; that doesn't fall inside your own definition of what one is allowed to say.

  87. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @1:38 pm

    @James Pollock:

    You removed agency when you equated those with agency (the muslims), to those without (wasps); Jenny was pointing out that failure in your analogy (and sayig nit came across as kind of racist, considering you're talking about an entire class of people…something I disagree with since I know you were referring to the MOB, not to the RACE/RELIGION).

    It is perfectly appropriate to point out the failures of an analogy, particularly if you feel that failure makes the analogy worthless.

    In the "wasps" analogy, sicne wasps have no moral agency, the one throwing stones is the one who has the moral agency, which should prevent them from throwing stones because it's not like there are a group of peaceful wasps or anything; the wasps analogy is similar to throwing stones at a precarious rock that might tip over; the burden is on the one who acts knowing the certain consequences of the action. In the real situation, the attackers were people, 100% with their own moral agency, so therefore they are 100% responsible for their actions.

  88. Gavin  •  Sep 13, 2012 @1:39 pm

    @Grifter,

    Fair enough. It is a coherrent argument but the premise is flawed.

  89. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @2:57 pm

    @Gavin:

    I was never really defending the premise, just what I perceived to be the unfair "because I disagree with your premises, now your premises are these, and therefore you don't know what this word means because."

  90. Christopher Swing  •  Sep 13, 2012 @3:54 pm

    @bvierra

    You might want to dump "Nightwatch" from your reliable sources list.

    The sole source for this assertion was "Nightwatch"—a conservative "intelligence" blog written by former Defense Department analyst John McCreary and hosted by a subsidiary of a defense contractors' lobby group—which attributed the report to unnamed (and uncounted) "USMC blogs." According to McCreary, Patterson—a career foreign service officer who was not a political appointee, and who served George W. Bush as an ambassador to the UN and to Pakistan—"did not defend U.S. sovereign territory and betrayed her oath of office." And: "She neutered the Marines posted to defend the embassy, trusting the Egyptians over the Marines."

    Update, 2:30pmPDT: Mother Jones has obtained a memorandum from the Marine Corps' congressional liaison confirming that the Marine guards at the embassy in Egypt were in fact armed with live ammunition, contrary to the anti-Obama conspiracy theory du jour:

    The Ambassador did not impose restrictions on weapons or weapons status on the Marine Corps Embassy Security Group (MCESG) detachment. The MCESG Marines in Cairo were allowed to have live ammunition in their weapons. The Ambassador and Regional Security Officer have been completely and appropriately engaged with the security situation. Reports of Marines not being able to have their weapons loaded per direction from the Ambassador are not accurate.

  91. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @4:08 pm

    @Gavin:

    I accidentally posted this in another tab, which means it makes no sense there and belongs here:

    "Scratch that, that was unneccessarily repetitive. Thank you for seeing my point, Gavin."

  92. James Pollock  •  Sep 13, 2012 @6:30 pm

    Grifter, now YOU'RE the one removing moral agency!
    "In the "wasps" analogy, sicne[sic] wasps have no moral agency, the one throwing stones is the one who has the moral agency"
    But if the "wasps" are, rather than maddened insects, maddened people, the guy with the rocks no longer has any moral agency? I say he still does, and what he does is wrong, objectively, whether he is interacting with stinging insects, bears, or human beings, if he intentionally puts other people at risk of being stung, mauled, or beaten by a mob. Or, if you prefer different terminology, he is being a dick. He is doing something he should not do.
    That throwing rocks at a wasp's nest is a lawful thing to do does not excuse the moral lapse.

  93. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @7:27 pm

    And I argue it's not a moral lapse. In the first place, there is a huge moral gulf between attacking someone's home and killing someone's family (throwing rocks at a hornet's nest), and talking. So you're right to say the rock-thrower has moral agency, and is committing an objective wrong. But he's also not just standing near a friend, away from the wasps and nowhere near their home, saying "Y'know what? Wasps suck".

    So while we agree on the wasps, to say that those scenarios are directly equivalent is disingenuous, for the reasons I noted.

    Even if you're being a dick when you're talking, I find it hard to allow you to be the moral arbiter of what is "proper" moral speech. What if this guy's opinion of Islam is objectively right?

    One of the reasons we have free speech is because anything anyone says might be offensive to someone. Again, if this guy was actually IN their home, or forcing them to watch it, then this conversation would be different. But he's in his own home (country), where he gets to be as racist or bigoted as he wants. to be, and you want to assign blame to him for the actions of other moral actors. What hey did is never acceptable, period, fullstop. You're engaging in a form of victim-blaming, although this guys hasn't been a victim quite yet.

    "Ugh, she walked down the street without averting her whore's eyes! It's her fault I have to beat my children!"

  94. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @7:31 pm

    I will say, if it was specifically his intent to get Americans killed, then yes, he committed a wrong, because intending to cause murder is a wrong. But if he was intending to cause offense, that's not a wrong.

  95. James Pollock  •  Sep 13, 2012 @10:27 pm

    "he's also not just standing near a friend, away from the wasps and nowhere near their home, saying "Y'know what? Wasps suck"."

    True. As noted, either in this thread or the other (I'm losing track), the difference between saying something, even saying something rude and insulting, is one thing (which is not the situation under discussion, and never has been). "Mr. Bacile" didn't say "Muslims suck" to a friend nowhere near any Muslims.

    What he did do is calculate an action pretty much guaranteed to A) insult the religious beliefs of pretty much all the Muslims, and B) get the nutcases who were already close to the borderline over it into full-on crazy mode, which state has historically led to violence. Now, over in category A, we (the rest of America) say "yeah, he was kind of rude. Get over it." and, well, nearly every Muslim in the world did, no harm, no foul. But over in category B, other people were put at risk of harm, and that's different.

    "What if this guy's opinion of Islam is objectively right?"
    Good question. What if it is? If the exact same point can be made without stirring up the crazies into violence, but you intentionally choose the one that WILL or maybe even PROBABLY WILL stir up the crazies into violence, you've contributed to the violence.

    "you want to assign blame to him for the actions of other moral actors."
    No, I do not. I want to assign blame to him for his own actions. Your approach, for example, would mean that faginy is morally pure. The kids are moral actors and they stole stuff, which was wrong, full stop. I say, no, the kids were wrong, and deserve the consequences for their wrong, AND the fagin was ALSO wrong, and deserves the consequences for HIS wrong.
    You're working under a mindset where if a person does something, they get all the blame possible and there is no other blame in the blame bucket for anyone else. How about this case (not offered as an analogue, but as the far end of the spectrum.) Three men discuss killing a fourth. One of them just talks about how much he wishes guy #4 was dead, and expresses a desire that someone would shoot him. The second guy then says "heay, I've got a piece", picks up his own firearm and hands it to the third guy, who doesn't give it back and uses it the next week to shoot the the fourth guy dead. If I parse your logic correctly, the guy who did the shooting gets 100% of the blame, because he's the one who decided to pull the trigger. The other two guys never even pointed a gun at the dead guy, so they get off scott free.

    However, our legal system works differently, and will convict guy #3 of murder, but will ALSO punish guy #2 for being an accessory to murder, and will charge all three of them with the separate crime of conspiracy to murder. See? There's enough blame to go around to everyone who had maliciously contributed to the violence.

  96. Grifter  •  Sep 13, 2012 @10:41 pm

    @James Pollock:

    Bullshit. You are assigning him blame for their actions. If they hadn't attacked or killed anyone, you wouldn't be finding this much fault with the guy, even though his actions were the same.

    And I am perfectly capable of recognizing that sometimes the blame bucket gets larger based on circumstances; please do not put words in my mouth. However, I do not believe that this is one of those instances.

    Let's clarify, shall we?

    He made a movie in the U.S. He didn't ship it to foreign countries. He didn't go to foreign countries to speak about it. Everything about this movie was internal to our country. Yet he's held accountable to the actions of people who become violent because they're nosy about out country and heard about it.

    Is that correct?

    Would you consider someone who was told "Rape this child or I'll kill these ten people" morally wrong for refusing the demand? They knew their refusal would result in the death of the ten people, after all. The point is: refusing to buckle down to terrorism does not make you responsible for the terrorism.

    What was your opinion of Everybody Draw Muhammed Day? Were those people committing moral wrongs, or were they taking a stand against terrorism?

  97. James Pollock  •  Sep 13, 2012 @11:38 pm

    "Bullshit. You are assigning him blame for their actions."
    Still no. Repeating it doesn't make it so.
    HIS wrongful act is one of recklessness. Lots of times, recklessness has no (natural) consequences, because of luck. THIS particular reckless act had no consequences (in the form of injury to persons in Cairo) although there was some property damage (If I understand correctly, I haven't followed any of the later news coverage on the subject). But reckless behavior is reckless behavior whether it creates an actual injury in any particular incident.

    "you want to assign blame to him for the actions of other moral actors. What hey did is never acceptable, period, fullstop."
    "And I am perfectly capable of recognizing that sometimes the blame bucket gets larger based on circumstances"
    Feel free to reconcile these two statements.

    Now, the facts:
    "He didn't ship it to foreign countries."
    Familiar at all with the term "world wide web" (and the implied scope of access in placing something on the www)?
    "Everything about this movie was internal to our country"
    See above.

    "Would you consider someone who was told "Rape this child or I'll kill these ten people" morally wrong for refusing the demand? They knew their refusal would result in the death of the ten people, after all."
    The lesser of two evils is evil. Fortunately options like this are presented almost entirely as hypotheticals… and this one doesn't really apply.
    There's a big, big difference between having an irrational person descend upon you and offer you a choice with no good options (as you offer above), and the situation where an intentional antagonization of the irrational person is the first step. (The legal terminology for this situation is "unclean hands".)
    Put yet another way… if you go looking for a fight, you don't get to complain later if you find one, but it wasn't the one you expected.
    This is not to say that irrational people can never be confronted; they can be, and are. Rather, as with all other things, the consequences of our actions (choosing to confront the irrational) are our own moral responsibility. If we are lucky and choose our battles carefully, the net benefits of the conflicts will be positive; If not, then not. This is true of every interaction with every other person any person ever has… we carry the responsibility for our own actions, always, without exception. How we choose to deal with other people is something we all have to reconcile with ourselves, and for the religious, with our deity(ies) upon Judgment.

    "What was your opinion of Everybody Draw Muhammed Day?"
    Not familiar with that one. I'll make a few quick assumption based on the name, and answer as best as I can.

    As noted above and previously, a certain amount of rudeness and insult is concomittant with living in the world; the answer is "suck it up and get over it". I assume that the vast majority of the drawings made were trivial, in the sense that although the people who made drawings did so knowing that the very act of drawing Muhammed is offensive to Muslims, most of the people doing the drawing did not, say, go out of the way to draw Muslims' attention to the fact that they were drawing, and the drawings were not, say, gathered together into a package and mailed to a mosque. Thus, more of a "taking a stand" thought process than an act taken with malice. The more actual malice present in creating the drawings, the more likely these extra, "rub their noses in it"-type actions were taken, and therefore the more likely they were to be recklessly inflammatory, and therefore more likely to be wrongful.

    Let me offer another insight. With regard to the offensive video and the Cairo riots, it's entirely possible that there was a THIRD wrongful actor, who took notice of existence of the video and spread news of its existence to other Muslims, with the goal of inflaming them to action.

  98. Gavin  •  Sep 14, 2012 @6:40 am

    @Grifter,

    Hah, I saw your post in the other thread first. It seemed odd but I thought you were just agreeing with me saying that Religious Studies Professors probably shouldn't try to explain law to people.

    Yeah, I was just rewording what I thought you meant. His argument is technically a formulaically correct argument regardless of the correctness of the premise behind it.

    Example:

    A. If you believe that all dogs go to heaven, B. then you should kill all dogs to help them get there faster since heaven is so much better than life here, C. otherwise you are a hypocrite or just hate animals…

    B, being the premise we think is an invalid/non-necessary conlclusion of A in both my silly constructed logical statement and his.

  99. Grifter  •  Sep 14, 2012 @6:57 am

    Well, I feel like Lizard's argument was more to the effect of:

    B. If you really believed that, you would kill all dogs to help them get there faster since heaven is so much better than life here.

    B isn't the conclusion, it's the second premise.

    The conclusion is: Since you don't do that (I guess technically this is a third premise, followed by the conclusion), therefore you don't really believe it.

    (I don't think Lizard was saying it was a necessity, just a fact of behavior as premise…one that you have, obviously, argued against. It's actually kind of similar to "If you liked these cupcakes you bought, you'd be eating them"…perhaps true, except I went to the dentist, so my face is numb and that's why I'm not eating them…not to draw from life for analogies or anything. Anyway, the point is, when my face wasn't numb anymore, those cupcakes were delicious. No, wait, what were we talking about?)

    I'm probably just being annoyingly nitpicky about the construction of the argument.

  100. Gavin  •  Sep 14, 2012 @8:01 am

    Grifter:

    Right, I apologize for using the word conclusion in the same sentence I called it a premise. I mean that the second premise was arrived at (the conclusion of) an incorrect understanding of additional information (that we can't force people to have faith, no matter how many volts we attach to their scrotum, and we aren't supposed to). Not that it was the conlusion in the logic statement. The portion on hypocrisy was.

    I don't have any anesthetic reason for using the colloquial form of "conclusion" in a statement about logic.

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