31 Comments

1. Mercury  •  Jun 19, 2012 @10:08 am
   

   Just you know, the Obama Administration relies heavily on unicorns and rainbows for most if it policy decisions.

2. Dan Z  •  Jun 19, 2012 @10:18 am
   

   Mercury, dont be silly everyone knows Unicorns are extinct, just like Leprechaun's!

3. nlp  •  Jun 19, 2012 @10:22 am
   

   I suppose it's possible the sheriff had dealt with this minister before, and knew that if he didn't do something he'd be getting calls and newspaper headlines about how a prophet had given information and was being ignored.

   I've also heard of at least one case where a psychic, who had actual, personal information about a crime, had claimed during a seance to have a vision that gave her knowledge of the crime, thus giving information to the police and at the same time not actually fingering the criminal.

   Of course, it's also possible the sheriff believes in psychics.

4. TJIC  •  Jun 19, 2012 @10:26 am
   

   As someone who ALSO believes in "Jesus and the angels", is there some way that I can get these people to change their religious affiliation?

5. Secular Absolutist  •  Jun 19, 2012 @10:43 am
   

   Never mind what the sheriff believes. He is just doing his job in a sleepy little hamlet outside of Houston.

   Either the judge believes in angels speaking to the reverund, or did not even read the warrant application. The judge should be stripped of his robes. Assuming of course, he is clothed underneath, if not, the confiscating his gavel will suffice.

6. John David Galt  •  Jun 19, 2012 @11:23 am
   

   Gee, I don't know, maybe you could sue the police department for hiring people too stupid to realize that a tip from an angel is not probable cause for searching anywhere!

7. Joe  •  Jun 19, 2012 @11:41 am
   

   Don't forget you can use Wayback as well to pull copies of archived web pages. The wikilink provides the necessary instructions on how. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Using_the_Wayback_Machine

8. Randall  •  Jun 19, 2012 @11:54 am
   

   It seems to me that if some 80% of the American population is christian and "believes in Jesus and angels" that is is likely that both the Sheriff and the judge also hold such beliefs. If they do indeed sincerely hold such beliefs then perhaps the sheriff should take a warrant for false statements against the reverend/psychic.

9. Ghost  •  Jun 19, 2012 @12:11 pm
   

   Probable freakin cause! Probable! Not possible, PROBABLE! The f**k! Yes, it's possible that aliens came down and dumped 150 bodies in someone's back yard. Probable? Not so much. Is it possible that someone is a psychic or prophet? Sure. Probable? No.

   This should be ground for immediate removal of the sheriff, the judge, and the prosecutor who asked for the warrant.

10. jesdynf  •  Jun 19, 2012 @12:31 pm
    

    So if I tell the cops that the Flying Spaghetti Monster has come to me in my dreams and told me that there's a mass grave under somebody else's lawn, they're going to show up out there with earthmovers, right? I'd be distressed to find that they'd established a preferred religion…

11. C. S. P. Schofield  •  Jun 19, 2012 @12:32 pm
    

    Ok, let me play Devil's advocate here; if a minister or other respected member of the community came to the police and stated that he believed that there were bodies buried on a property without mention of angels, visions, or little men from Mars, how much would the police be expected to question him? OK, maybe the Reverend Dr. Daydream needs to get clocked for making a false police report. I'm not a HUGE cop fan, but I'm a little tiny bit leary of teeing off on them in this instance.

    Thoughts?

12. Ken  •  Jun 19, 2012 @12:36 pm
    

    CSP, it depends on whether he articulated the basis for his claim.

    If the minister said "I believe there are bodies there because I was playing croquet there and I stumbled over a hand," or "because I saw them burying the bodies," or "because the homeowner got drunk and admitted it to me," that's likely probable cause. But if the minister simply says "I believe," that's a tip without attribution; there's no way to assess its credibility or the basis for believing it. At that point you might as well just have warrant applications that are nothing but the police officer saying "I believe there is evidence here" and nothing else.

13. Christopher  •  Jun 19, 2012 @12:41 pm
    

    Bad citizen or not, cases like this certainly don't help to engender any trust in law enforcement or the judiciary.

14. Beth  •  Jun 19, 2012 @12:47 pm
    

    Before getting the warrant, deputies found "blood on the porch and the foul odor of rotting flesh in the air." No matter how crazy the source of the tip, would you really consider the police force competent if they showed up and said "Welp, anonymous tip about grave, now blood, odor of rotting meat… everything checks out okay, no need to bother these fine folks."

15. C. S. P. Schofield  •  Jun 19, 2012 @1:26 pm
    

    Ken,

    Fair enough.

    I think that someone should point out here that given that the history of English Common Law (which is traditionally supposed to be what our system of law is based on) goes back well into the Middle Ages, it seems likely that there is a great deal of precident for accepting visions and communications from Angels as probable cause.

    On the other hand, reading between the lines just a little, it seems likely that the claims of this 'minister' are (at least by Church of England standards) Theologically as well as scientifically unsound.

16. SPQR  •  Jun 19, 2012 @2:23 pm
    

    What is more ridiculous, the judge that signed the warrant or the idea that this might qualify for qualified immunity?

    Both. Freaking both.

17. Rob  •  Jun 19, 2012 @2:42 pm
    

    C. S. P. Schofield: While much of our system is based in common law, it is constrained by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and according to THOSE documents, you have to have a good damn reason to go searching someone's property, and the word of a crazy person isn't good enough.

18. Ghost  •  Jun 19, 2012 @3:20 pm
    

    Beth,
    Blood on the porch and the odor of rotting meat may be probable cause in an of itself. However, they are fruits from a poisoned tree. Also, scent is subjective. I may have just smoked the fattest joint since Up In Smoke, or I may have been sprayed by a skunk. That may be foul stench of death, or it might be curry.

    We don't give cops warrants based on hunches. And we sure as hell shouldn't give them warrants based on supernatural hogwash.

    We have a 4th amendment for a reason. You don't want to give armed thugs that much power (too late, I know).

19. C. S. P. Schofield  •  Jun 19, 2012 @4:24 pm
    

    Rob,

    I think that you might be surprised how much credence an 18th Century American court would have given heavenly visions. The modern secularism "seperation of Church and State" thinking is really emblematic of the latter half of the 20th Century; think about the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925 – nobody expected Scopes to be found anything but guilty. His conviction was NOT overturned on appeal. The city folk (like Mencken) were just beginning to make fun of the bible-thumping tent-revival atmosphere of the rural areas,

20. David Schwartz  •  Jun 19, 2012 @4:34 pm
    

    It's also impossible to corroborate a tip if you don't know what it's based on. For example, say you get a tip that there's a mass grave somewhere. You go to the place and see blood and notice a strange odor. Does that corroborate the tip?

    Well, yes, if the tip was based on overhearing two people who live their talking about disposing of bodies. But no if the tip was based on seeing the blood and smelling the odor. In the latter case, the tip adds nothing whatsoever and the evidence is insufficient for a warrant. In the former, the physical evidence is powerful corroboration of a tip that was from an independent source and together they are probably sufficient for a warrant.

21. Jess  •  Jun 19, 2012 @4:52 pm
    

    This whole thing plays into basically one of my worst fears (other than spiders that is) – that someone, anyone, who is a kook or has a personal axe to grind with me could make up shit and have my right to privacy and my personal belongings turned upside down.

22. Hasdrubal  •  Jun 19, 2012 @4:56 pm
    

    C.S.P:
    Spectral evidence was admitted at the Salem Witch trials, true, but in later cases it was ruled inadmissable. So, even if you were depending on the 1692 precedent, that was later overruled. If you think we should use anything as precedent that was used in the past, why not accept admission of guilt via torture as well. We had a lot of great ways to get witches to come clean which could be used against today's murderers, after all.

23. Beth  •  Jun 19, 2012 @4:59 pm
    

    Ghost,
    From what I understand, if they could see the blood and smell the odor from the front porch – a place you can usually go without a warrant – they're fair game for probable cause. (I'm sure I'll be corrected, rapidly, if I'm wrong.) And yes, odor is subjective, no way around that; still, it would be hard to justify ignoring blood + smell of decay.

    There's always more to the story than we hear. I can envision a scenario where a perfectly reasonable police officer, presumably with nothing else to do, follows up on a tip just so they can say they checked it out when the crazy lady calls back. Go to the porch and — gah, it smells like death — wait, is that blood? At this point, one doesn't have to believe the original supernatural hogwash to suspect something fishy may be going on here.

    Now, I'm just saying this is a possibility. It's also possible the deputies used a couple drops of blood and a kinda-funny smell as an excuse. I agree that would be completely unreasonable and a violation of the property owners' rights.

    Also, calling the media and saying things such as "PSYCHIC" and "MASS GRAVE" is just straight-up jackassery.

24. Acleron  •  Jun 19, 2012 @5:03 pm
    

    Perhaps they were fallen angels.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_angel

25. Michael Hawkins  •  Jun 19, 2012 @5:59 pm
    

    I'm pretty sure this is what Richard Dawkins means when he says religious belief is given undue respect.

26. Ghost  •  Jun 19, 2012 @9:02 pm
    

    Beth,
    I'm just saying, they went in on a tip from a damn psychic. I wouldn't take their word for anything after that. Like I said, fruit of a poisoned tree. If cops start knocking on doors because of psychics, we flush our protection against "unreasonable search" down the toilet, with a big "oh sh*t!" chaser.

    We've given them too much authority as it is. That, and both the blood and the odor had a clear explanation that didn't need taxpayer funded media firestorm.

    I hope they get every penny, and they all lose their jobs.

    This aggression will not stand, man! Can I smoke this in here?

27. Ghost  •  Jun 19, 2012 @9:03 pm
    

    They being the family, and they being the sheriff, prosecutor, and judge. Respectively.

28. AlphaCentauri  •  Jun 19, 2012 @9:35 pm
    

    Could be more to the story. It's a small town, where everyone knows what other people mean even if they don't say it. The minister could have received the tip in counseling a congregant and is passing on the information while protecting his/her anonymity. The sheriff understands (or perhaps has been told privately) that there is a more substantial basis to the tip, but everyone goes along with the heavenly revelation story rather than to put the real witness' life at risk.

29. David Schwartz  •  Jun 19, 2012 @9:40 pm
    

    Beth: Given the psychic tip, the bit of blood, and the smell of rotten meat, how likely do you think it is that a mass grave will be found? Would a prudent and cautious person in that situation believe it's probably true that there's a mass grave there?

30. David T  •  Jun 20, 2012 @8:41 am
    

    Given the tip (tho from an unreliable source) PLUS the bloodstains on the porch, visible from the street PLUS the smell of rotting flesh (again, detectable from the street) – it was certainly enough evidence to justify a search warrant.
    HOWEVER, the officers should not have released statements to the press until they'd investigated. If they'd waited until an officer had gone in (and found an unplugged freezer full of rotting beef) there wouldn't have been the nationwide media circus.

31. M.  •  Jul 9, 2012 @2:04 am
    

    Welcome to Texas.