"Speech is Tyranny" Is Kind of Gay, Really

Irksome, Politics & Current Events

Well, of course the fatuous notion that speech is tyranny — that accusations of bigotry "break the marketplace of ideas", and intimidate poor, hapless victims into silence — can be applied to whine about vigorous discussion of gay rights. How could we think otherwise?

Thanks to Kip for identifying a specimen in the wild, by Sven Wilson at Pileous:

The so-called gay rights movement is not, fundamentally, about civil rights (though gays certainly have had their civil rights violated in the past). It is about the complete normalization of homosexuality. Advocates want to obliterate any notion that homosexuality is outside the bounds of what is considered normal, acceptable, or desirable in society.

So-called blogger Sven (I like that he went with so-called rather than with scare quotes; those are so last year) wants you to understand that the gays don't merely want to get married on the City Hall steps. They want to "obliterate" entire normative concepts. From our minds. This probably seemed like a much more terrifying idea if you recently watched Inception. I don't want some gay Leonardo DiCaprio traipsing around my prefrontal cortext assaulting my tendency towards snark and preference for limited government. At first blush the gay agenda imagined by Sven seems rather ambitious, but bear in mind that we've been at war with social phenomena and concepts (War on Drugs, War on Poverty, War on Terror) for decades, so obliterating notions is a logical next step. The future holds epistemelogical wars, in which some future interests groups attempt to carpet-bomb the concept of whether or not it is possible to know whether or not they are or are not discriminated against.

But I digress. Sven is deeply concerned that gays and their fellow-travelers pose threats to freedom of speech and expression through their sheer hair-pulling nastiness:

What opponents of normalization fear most, I think, is not that gay marriage will damage the institution of marriage, but that their own rights and abilities to stand up against normalization will be further infringed. Those who oppose normalization do so on a variety of grounds: cultural traditions, historical precedent, religion, instinct, science, moral reasoning, emotion, even love. Certainly, these different grounds can all be contested, but many gay advocates want to paint the opposition as motivated only by ignorance, bigotry and fear. Such a characterization can be as hateful and damaging as any other kind of bigotry. Sadly, calling someone a hater (like calling someone a racist) merely degrades one’s opponents and stops civil discussion.

Oh my God! Advocates of one interest group want to argue against strawmen, mischaracterize and misinterpret their opponents' arguments, and treat extremists among their opponents as representative of all opponents? Say it isn't so! This is unprecedented in politics and Western thought!

Or, you know, maybe it's characteristic of every political dispute there ever was. Perhaps anti-gay folks are especially sensitive to offense? I don't know.

Notice how Sven subtly conflates "rights and abilities to stand against normalization" (suggesting some actual legal restriction on free expression) with being painted as a bigot. Sven thus pushes the "speech is tyranny" narrative that suggests being criticized — even roughly, even unfairly — is the equivalent of being censored. This is, as I've argued so many times before, an entirely incoherent approach to freedom of expression. But lying about the incidence of actual conflicts between anti-discrimination law and free speech, characterizing protests as assaults, and mixing up criticism and censorship are characteristic rhetorical devices of some elements of anti-same-sex-marriage movement.

Sven pushes the "speech is tyranny" button harder in the next paragraph:

Should we completely normalize homosexuality? Given our short sense of history, many forget that this is a radical question, not even conceivable in nearly all societies and times. Many say the answer is yes. But those who say no fear that their ability to peaceably espouse their views and to try to shape social institutions according to their beliefs are under serious threat.

Once again, Sven is smuggling bullshit — he's asserting, in effect, that vigorous pro-gay advocacy impairs the right to "peaceably espouse views." To the extent that any jurisdictions use the Prop 8 ruling as an opportunity to promote hate speech laws, or to the extent federal courts use it to further their Harper v. Poway style use of anti-discrimination principles to undermine free speech principles, he'd be right. Freedom of expression is under constant assault from both "liberal" and "conservative" directions, and ought to be defended vigorously. But that's rather clearly not the limit of what he is saying. He's suggesting that accusations of bigotry somehow impair actual rights.

But that's not the way the marketplace of ideas works. It's tough. Wear a cup. Cowboy up. Hell, from listening to the bigots I thought that it was the gays who were supposed to be unmanly and limp-wristed. But this "halp, halp, we can't express our disgust at gays without people expressing disgust at us" is just embarrassing. Should opponents of "normalization" of homosexuality have the unimpaired right to express their views, however nauseating they are? Absolutely. But under what rational or coherent theory of free expression should that right be cherished or defended more vigorously than the right of supporters of gay rights to criticize, ridicule, and belittle anti-gay views?

Laws outlawing gay marriage? Those may or may not be tyranny, depending on your interpretation of state and federal constitutions. But uttering controversial and sometimes pungent views, and being subjected to controversial and sometimes pungent criticism in return? That is not, by any stretch of the imagination, tyranny.

Last 5 posts by Ken White

41 Comments

41 Comments

  1. Tam  •  Aug 6, 2010 @12:25 pm

    "Advocates want to obliterate any notion that homosexuality is outside the bounds of what is considered normal, acceptable, or desirable in society."

    No, advocates want to obliterate any notion that homosexuality is any of your business, Gladys Kravitz. Now go tend to your own sex life and leave your neighbors to theirs.

  2. Imaginary Lawyer  •  Aug 6, 2010 @1:02 pm

    It's like the schoolyard bully who kicks the crap of out smaller kids, and as soon as one of them stands up to him, falls to the ground crying for Teacher because they're picking on him.

    Of course, we're talking about people who scream about "normalizing" homosexuality, so consistency and intellectual honesty is not exactly their strong point.

  3. KipEsquire  •  Aug 6, 2010 @1:17 pm

    … gay marriage will damage the institution of marriage … try to shape social institutions according to their beliefs …

    I'm starting to think that much of this is the result of the sham of calling marriage an "institution" — which implies that it has its own corporeal rights that can be infringed upon — with the Maggies, Hucks and Svens of the world merely serving as selfless guardians ad litem.

    The Smithsonian is an institution. The Vatican is an institution. The Boy Scouts are an institution. The KKK is an institution. Marriage is a legal status by for and of individuals, and the denial of which unarguably must trigger constitutional review in some form.

    All else is, as you say, smuggling bullshit.

  4. rsm  •  Aug 6, 2010 @4:58 pm

    Color me confused, but holy victimhood Batman!

    "But that’s not the way the marketplace of ideas works. It’s tough. Wear a cup. Cowboy up. Hell, from listening to the bigots I thought that it was the gays who were supposed to be unmanly and limp-wristed. But this “halp, halp, we can’t express our disgust at gays without people expressing disgust at us” is just embarrassing."

    Of all the recent claims of victimhood this one is probably the weirdest and dumbest, and certainly the most embarrassing one. A close running second would be the claims from some in the Catholic church that they are being unjustly persecuted.

  5. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 7, 2010 @8:27 pm

    This is an interesting reply, though as far as I can tell completely irrelevant to my post.

    Where did I at any point say anything remotely like "speech is tyranny?" Indeed, I would defend to the death your right to stand in the public square holding your "Hate is not a family value" sign (well, not my death probably, but yours anyway!).

    What I'm talking about is the objective of the gay rights movement, as I see it, not their means. Certainly I acknowledge their right to speech, even if I don't like it.

    Damon (and countless others) tries to compare race and sexuality. This illustrates nicely the very point I'm making. People who make statements even hinting at racism in today's world are subject to social condemnation (rightly so!) and, in many cases, will have their careers and lives ruined. Implicitly and explicitly, our social institutions (such as schools) preach the evils of racism.

    This is the same state of affairs that the gay rights movement wants to achieve, where statements perceived as anti-gay receive the same condemnation as statements perceived as racist. They certainly want schools to teach that homosexuality is completely normal and not objectionable. I'm a little surprised that anyone finds this claim objectionable. My post was not long and elaborate because the point was rather obvious.

    Pay more attention next time.

  6. Patrick  •  Aug 8, 2010 @10:15 am

    Sven, a couple of points:

    First, "speech is tyranny" is a metaphor. I read your post (I'm not the author of this response), and I found it to drip with fear, paranoia, and fret that people who have religious or otherwise morally based objections are going to face sanction for expressing their beliefs. If you mean legal sanction, you're a paranoid fearmonger (it's OK, I'm a paranoid fearmonger as well). If you mean sharp criticism, welcome to the jungle.

    A censor is only marginally worse one who argues that simple criticism is censorship. You're in that category.

    Second, I don't believe the gay rights movement wants to put you into a camp. What they want is the right to marry people of the same sex, to enjoy the legal privileges that marriage entails, and to enjoy the same level of protection against discrimination that, for instance, everyone enjoys on the basis of race.

    People who make statements even hinting at racism in today’s world are subject to social condemnation (rightly so!) and, in many cases, will have their careers and lives ruined. Implicitly and explicitly, our social institutions (such as schools) preach the evils of racism.

    Why shouldn't you be condemned for your hatred of homosexual people? I haven't found a convincing argument that homophobia is any less despicable than racism. So I condemn you.

  7. Imaginary Lawyer  •  Aug 8, 2010 @2:31 pm

    This is the same state of affairs that the gay rights movement wants to achieve, where statements perceived as anti-gay receive the same condemnation as statements perceived as racist.

    I like the wiggle room there in "perceived as". There are no anti-gay or racist statements; all bigotry is solely in the ear of the beholder.

  8. rsm  •  Aug 8, 2010 @8:31 pm

    They certainly want schools to teach that homosexuality is completely normal and not objectionable.

    And just to make it abundantly clear: Making any claim to the contrary means you are either stupid, willfully ignorant or delusional.

    Those things aren't about a "gay agenda" (see I added scare quotes just for you), it's about the facts of life, some people are hard coded prefer their own gender, some people to prefer to be alone, some people to like many people and some people, in fact most, to like the other gender. Hey goodie, irrelevant religious objections to facts shouldn't just be ignored, they should be laughed at, then taken out back and put of their misery.

  9. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @8:16 am

    Patrick: OK. Now I have it figure it finally. When people do not accept my beliefs or endorse my behavior, it is only because they hate me.

    My life will be so much easier now. Whenever someone challenges me, I now know how to respond. I'll just say, "well, you hate me."

    Thanks you so much for bringing me this clarity.

  10. Professor Coldheart  •  Aug 9, 2010 @8:45 am

    Could someone help me parse this sentence of Sven's?

    "Advocates [of the right of gays to marry in the eyes of the law] want to obliterate any notion that homosexuality is outside the bounds of what is considered normal, acceptable, or desirable in society."

    Am I daft, or is this just a well-dressed tautology?

    Advocates of gay rights are part of society. By advocating, they are trying to expand the bounds of what society considers acceptable. I mean, that's what they're doing. Wilson drops that in there like it's a damning blow when, in fact, it's a reflexive expression.

    Either that, or Wilson doesn't consider advocates for gay rights part of the society whose bounds of normality, acceptability and desirability are being threatened. And he wonders why we suspect him of bigotry!

  11. Ken  •  Aug 9, 2010 @9:26 am

    Damon (and countless others) tries to compare race and sexuality. This illustrates nicely the very point I’m making. People who make statements even hinting at racism in today’s world are subject to social condemnation (rightly so!) and, in many cases, will have their careers and lives ruined. Implicitly and explicitly, our social institutions (such as schools) preach the evils of racism.

    This is the same state of affairs that the gay rights movement wants to achieve, where statements perceived as anti-gay receive the same condemnation as statements perceived as racist.

    So what?

    You try to disavow my point, but you're just making it for me. You're arguing that condemnation for racial — or preference — rhetoric is somehow unnaturally harmful/disabling. To which I say (a) bullshit and (b) so what? Why is "anti-gay animus is morally wrong and harmful to society" any more powerful than "gay advocacy is morally wrong and harmful to society" — and why should we care if it is? Why does saying "that's homophobic and obnoxious" somehow "stop civil discussion" more than saying "that's part of the homosexual agenda and harmful" — and why should we care?

    You accuse the gay rights movement (and by implication the civil rights movement) of inappropriate victimhood, but most of your post is about the victimhood of the poor, suffering anti-gay movement, and how they can't hold their own in the marketplace of ideas. I wasn't suggesting that you were openly advocating actual speech restrictions. You weren't — openly. I was suggesting that you were advocating some sort of Americans with Disabilities Act for anti-gay thought, in which people suffering from rhetorical disability need special protection and sympathy.

  12. Patrick  •  Aug 9, 2010 @11:08 am

    Patrick: OK. Now I have it figure it finally. When people do not accept my beliefs or endorse my behavior, it is only because they hate me.

    I don't know whether that's true or not, but I do know that you're not expressing your own beliefs out of L-U-V for your gay brothers and sisters, now are you?

    As for me, I disagree with you, but I haven't known you long enough to hate you. Keep working at it.

  13. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @11:14 am

    Professor Coldheart says:

    "By advocating, they are trying to expand the bounds of what society considers acceptable. I mean, that’s what they’re doing."

    Yes, my point exactly. That is what they are doing.

  14. Ken  •  Aug 9, 2010 @11:16 am

    Yes, my point exactly. That is what they are doing.

    The difference between you and the Prof. is that you are suggesting there is something nefarious about it, something that violates some poorly-defined rights of people who don't agree.

  15. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @11:40 am

    Ken, I can't see where I suggest that the advocacy is nefarious. I do, of course, imply that the "complete normalization" I refer to is, to use economist's lingo, "sub-optimal."

    Anyhow, despite what some on both sides of the debate fail to acknowledge, sexuality and sexual orientation are very complicated–far more complicated than we can resolve in any flow of blog comments, so I doubt I'll continue on this thread much longer.

    And, Patrick, you are very wrong. Wading into this thicket where I am bounded to be called ignorant and a bigot is motivated COMPLETELY by my love for "my gay brothers and sisters."

  16. ParatrooperJJ  •  Aug 9, 2010 @11:45 am

    Actually what the really want it Catholic priests in jail for refusing to marry them.

  17. Ken  •  Aug 9, 2010 @11:46 am

    You're projecting, Paratrooper.

  18. Marie  •  Aug 9, 2010 @11:48 am

    Sven –Damon (and countless others) don’t TRY to compare race and sexuality – they DO compare race and sexuality. Oddly enough, I get the feeling that on some level you recognize that this is an apt comparison, and that, in the end, you are on the wrong side of the argument. You just aren’t ready to admit it, even to yourself, so you use lots of weasel words and nonsensical arguments.

    You acknowledge that racism is worthy of social condemnation. Yet every argument you make against “normalization of homosexuality” was once made in opposition to the “normalization” of mixed-race marriage and before that to emancipation. Cultural traditions, historical precedent, religion, instinct, science, moral reasoning, emotion and even love were all invoked at one time or another first by those who supported slavery, and then by those who opposed civil rights. And now, most people do paint the opposition to emancipation and civil rights as ignorant, bigoted and/or fearful.

    You don’t want to be treated the way people opposed to “normalization for blacks” are treated today, yet you want to make the same arguments they made in the past. Do you see the disconnect?

  19. Marie  •  Aug 9, 2010 @11:52 am

    Maybe Paratrooper means that "the" (whatever "the" may be) want "it Catholic priests" to be jailed because "it Catholic priests" won't actually become "the's" spouse?
    Or perhaps Paratrooper just has a typing impediment…

  20. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @12:36 pm

    Marie:

    Yours is one of the more thoughtful (thank you!) comments, so I'll reply.

    Yes, there would be the "type" of disconnect between race and sexual orientation IF race and sexual orientation were at all comparable–in nature, in complexity, in magnitude, in origin, in social significance and meaning. I'm not really interested in a discussion with those clueless enough to maintain that "sexual orientation is just like race." Sorry.

    But you are reading way too much into my post if you think that I have actually been arguing against the normalization of homosexuality. What I have said is that opponents fear normalization because it will significantly restrict their ability to advocate the position they believe in (take for instance, the people who lost their jobs because their support for Prop 8 was revealed, or the various ways that anti-discrimination laws might be applied that Ken originally referred to, some of which are fear-mongering, some of which are very real ).

    If sexual orientation were like skin color, I would agree with you that the social social condemnation would be desirable, in my view. But it isn't. Anyway, that is what the debate is "really about," which was point in the first place, before I got accused, predictably, of being opposed to free speech (laughable) or being full of hatred towards gays (also laughable).

    I am, of course, opposed to the normalization of homosexuality, but I haven't made in my post or in my comments ANY argument on WHY that is. I do have reasons, but they are more along the lines suggested by Patrick, that come out of my love for my gay brothers and sisters.

    I'm sure many on this blog (but I actually have no clue who follows this blog, so maybe I shouldn't assume) cannot imagine any such arguments without immediately jumping to the ignorance ("don't you know what the DSM says?") or bigotry ("religious people really just hate everyone different from them") explanations. Oh well, I don't see a meeting of the minds here.

  21. PLW  •  Aug 9, 2010 @12:38 pm

    In economists' lingo, "sub-optimal" means that it makes things worse for everyone (or more formally, that there's a way of changing things that makes everyone better off). I doubt you'd find much support for the that idea that "complete normalization" makes things worse for homosexuals.

    I think what you mean is that your afraid "complete normalization" makes things better for them and worse for you.

  22. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @12:38 pm

    Editorial note: In the last comment, I meant to quote your use of "disconnect" not "type".

  23. PLW  •  Aug 9, 2010 @12:38 pm

    grr.. "you're afraid".

  24. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @12:40 pm

    PLW: Only if you are applying a strict Pareto rule, which I'm not.

  25. Ken  •  Aug 9, 2010 @12:46 pm

    So, Seven are the anti-gay-normalization advocates' "ability to peaceably espouse their views and to try to shape social institutions according to their beliefs" threatened by pro-gay speech, or not?

    Also, do you believe that the rhetoric about gays commonly used by opponents of "normalization" of homosexuality promotes civil discourse? You're concerned that people making accusations of bigotry or ignorance "degrades" and "stops civil discourse." If you're not advocating for a preferred protected status for one set of speakers, it's curious that you would say that without exploring whether the opposing rhetoric is different. Unless, of course, your aim is to present the opponents of "normalization" as victims.

  26. Charles  •  Aug 9, 2010 @12:48 pm

    I am, of course, opposed to the normalization of homosexuality, but I haven’t made in my post or in my comments ANY argument on WHY that is.

    Well then shame on us for jumping to the crazy conclusion that someone who doesn't think homosexuality should be considered unremarkable is not, in fact, wildly pro-gay!

    Please. Share. I'd love to hear the pro-gay argument for refusing to "normalize" homosexuality.

  27. Ken  •  Aug 9, 2010 @12:54 pm

    Sven:

    What I have said is that opponents fear normalization because it will significantly restrict their ability to advocate the position they believe in (take for instance, the people who lost their jobs because their support for Prop 8 was revealed, or the various ways that anti-discrimination laws might be applied that Ken originally referred to, some of which are fear-mongering, some of which are very real ).

    This seems to be a narrowing of what you wrote in your original blog post, which strongly suggested that speech itself unfairly threatens the rights of opponents of "normalization." Of what relevance is the concern for "civil discourse" to the fear that the government will impose official sanctions against disfavored speech?

    As to people being fired for supporting Proposition 8: one can construct a perfectly colorable argument that private employers should not be allowed to fire individuals based on political advocacy. That's not the current law in at-will states, of course. Are you announcing support for a law that prohibits any firings for an employee's political advocacy?

    (Personally, I think that an employer firing an employee for their private political stance is in almost every instance controlling and pathological. That doesn't mean I think the law should prohibit it, whether the employer is pro-8 or anti-8.)

  28. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @1:11 pm

    Ken, I'll have to disagree with you that my post "strongly suggested that speech itself unfairly threatens the rights of opponents of 'normalization.'" It's not the speech itself that is the problem, but the objectives of the speakers. If the gay rights movement were successful in its aims, I think we would end up in a state of affairs where opponents of normalization would find their "rights and abilities" restricted, as I said.

    In short, I'm not trying to make victims out of people's right to speech. But there are a variety of views argued in the public sphere that would, if the speakers ENDS were to be achieved, would result in a serious consequences.

    Good question about the hiring and political advocacy. I am in favor of freedom of contract–for both the employer and the employee, but I'm not a fan of the way anti-discrimination laws are applied in the workplace. On the other hand, I don't like political advocacy being muzzled. I don't think it is an easy question.

  29. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @1:18 pm

    Oh, in response to your previous query, let me say that I want all sides to be able to to peaceably espouse their views and am not arguing for "preferred protected status" for anyone.

    That said, I think some types of speech promote civil discourse more effectively than others. I saw a gay couple holding up a sign (I think it was in the Times, though I'm not sure) that said, "Marriage makes life feel different." That promotes increased empathy and understanding in my mind. A sign like "Hate is not a family value" just says that the other side is hateful. Saying "I hate you" or "you hate me" doesn't open up much constructive dialogue, does it?

  30. Charles  •  Aug 9, 2010 @1:24 pm

    If the gay rights movement were successful in its aims, I think we would end up in a state of affairs where opponents of normalization would find their “rights and abilities” restricted, as I said.

    Which would be different from how gay (and pro-gay) people have it right now, exactly? Why should your side be the side that should be preferred?

    You are claiming that your increasingly unpopular viewpoint has a social cost and that social cost is damaging to you. The status quo, however, is not that being gay has a social cost, based on how people "feel" about gays, but that there are specific legal disadvantages to being gay that run afoul of equal protection law.

  31. Ken  •  Aug 9, 2010 @1:25 pm

    Sven, I find your assumption that it can be said in any meaningful sense that the "gay rights movement" has aims of restricting the free speech and free exercise rights of opponents of gay rights. That's a vast overgeneralization and simply inaccurate when applied to many of whom recognize that their own free speech rights depend upon respecting the free speech rights of others. I don't buy it as anything but overgeneralized propaganda. (Unless, of course, one buys into the notion that free speech and free exercise rights include the right to restrict the rights of others through legislation.)

    I also confess I don't understand the point of the portions of your original blog post that I've highlighted, if your point was only to warn about ultimate legal ends, not rhetorical means. Mostly I'm thinking of this:

    Such a characterization can be as hateful and damaging as any other kind of bigotry. Sadly, calling someone a hater (like calling someone a racist) merely degrades one’s opponents and stops civil discussion.

    I would agree with you that civil discourse promotes empathy and understanding more than inflamed rhetoric. I simply find it odd, and notably one-sided, to look at the national discourse over homosexuality, gay rights, and gay marriage and see accusations of bigotry as being the only inflammatory rhetoric worth mentioning.

    {Edited: fixed blockquote}

  32. Sven Wilson  •  Aug 9, 2010 @1:37 pm

    Ken,

    On the first highlighted paragraph, I think I covered that in my last comment.

    On the second, unless I'm being totally thick, I think someone else wrote that, not me!

    Cheers.

  33. Professor Coldheart  •  Aug 9, 2010 @1:38 pm

    let me say that I want all sides to be able to to peaceably espouse their views and am not arguing for “preferred protected status” for anyone.

    Believe it or not, I want that too.

    But I don't know what having a meta-conversation about Keeping Accusations of Bigotry From Ruining The Debate accomplishes. The easiest way for opponents of gay marriage to keep the "bigotry" label from being thrown at them would probably be to stop making bigoted arguments.

    I'm not trying to be flip here. I have yet to read an argument opposing gay marriage that did not hinge, however carefully, on the inherent "otherness" of gays. I've read a lot of speculation on what might happen to the institution of marriage, but no logical warrants backed up by solid reasoning.

    I know you didn't come over here to argue pro- or contra- gay marriage but to defend your thesis, Sven, and I respect that. We're not a friendly crowd! But I don't see the point of the meta-conversation. Okay, we all agree that the debate on gay marriage would be a lot more civil if one side stopped calling the other bigots. Granted. But that's not a conclusion we've arrived at in a vacuum.

  34. LabRat  •  Aug 9, 2010 @1:51 pm

    "Please. Share. I’d love to hear the pro-gay argument for refusing to “normalize” homosexuality."

    Sven has danced around it and therefore I may not be right, but I would bet money his position is that homosexual sex and relationships endangers the immortal soul of gay people, therefore normalizing homosexuality removes a source of social pressure that would otherwise have them trying to "convert", as it were, or to stay chaste and closeted.

    I'll grant that such a position is internally logically consistent, which doesn't mean it's a sympathetic one from any outside point of view that questions the theology.

  35. Charles  •  Aug 9, 2010 @1:58 pm

    That's my guess too, Lab Rat, but I didn't want to put words in his mouth. Alas, he doesn't want to put words in his own mouth either.

  36. Ken  •  Aug 9, 2010 @2:00 pm

    If Sven wants it to be known, he'll say it. I'm not inclined to speculate. I don't particularly care for the "I have not pulled aside the curtain" rhetorical bit, but that's his to do or not do.

  37. Ken  •  Aug 9, 2010 @2:03 pm

    Sven, I disagree that your last comment explains the drop-in about civil speech and the harms of being called a bigot, if the import of your blog post was about the legal consequences of gay rights advocates getting what they want. People can read it and make up their own mind.

    On the second, unless I’m being totally thick, I think someone else wrote that, not me!

    I screwed up the block quote. The second paragraph is mine.

  38. Imaginary Lawyer  •  Aug 9, 2010 @2:48 pm

    Okay, we all agree that the debate on gay marriage would be a lot more civil if one side stopped calling the other bigots.

    It would be a lot more civil if one side stopped calling the other sodomites, child molesters and a threat to the American family, too. Sven's ringing support of civil discourse is awfully one-sided.

  39. Patrick  •  Aug 9, 2010 @3:11 pm

    Honestly, if I were gay I would call those who would deny me equal treatment under the law bigots and worse. What's remarkable about the issue is how civil the contest has been. The pro-marriage side hasn't produced its Malcolm X in over 40 years of struggle for equality.

    Sven, this is the problem and why I call you a bigot: You support a status quo which leaves many people second class citizens based on an inherent characteristic. I simply cannot treat your views with respect, because our world views on this issue are so incompatible. Under the circumstances calling you a bigot is a mild, and truthful, rebuke. I appreciate that you're a polite, civil, and soft-spoken bigot, but a bigot you remain.

    Sorry to drop that into a polite discussion.

  40. Marie  •  Aug 10, 2010 @10:28 am

    Sadly, calling someone a hater (like calling someone a racist) merely degrades one’s opponents and stops civil discussion.
    I’m not really interested in a discussion with those clueless enough to maintain that “sexual orientation is just like race.” Sorry.
    You say I’m one of the more thoughtful responders, and in the same paragraph say I’m clueless and unworthy of discussion. So who IS worthy of discussion, Sven? Only those who agree with you that gays should neither have equal rights nor even agitate for them?

    Why is it ok for you to insult people and shut down discussion, but not for others to have that effect on you?
    Or, is the problem with the specific terms you feel are used by those who oppose you? Is the problem that “ignorant” and “bigoted” are too harsh for your delicate sensibilities, and you’d be fine with being called “misinformed” and “foolish”?

    And why won’t you share your loving reasons with us? Why don’t you want us to see the love you have, so we can understand how wrong we are? Why, Sven? Why?

  41. Marie  •  Aug 10, 2010 @10:31 am

    Damn. I completely failed at using HTML tags…
    The first two paragraphs of my comment above are quotes of Sven.