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	<title>Comments on: Perceptions Of Gender, Class, And The Other: The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, And The Curious Case Of A Milwaukee Mom And Her Evisceration At The Hands Of Milwaukee&#039;s Best</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/</link>
	<description>A Group Complaint about Law, Liberty, and Leisure</description>
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		<title>By: Eduardo</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-26351</link>
		<dc:creator>Eduardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-26351</guid>
		<description>On an almost totally unrelated note, I was absolutely shocked by how great the Milwaukee Art Museum is. I thought the hoity toity Art Institute in Chicago would blow it away, but it is too chock full of classic art that arouses art students and bores the piss out of me, whereas the MAM had lots of neat and engaging pieces (aside from the 3 colored rectangles).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On an almost totally unrelated note, I was absolutely shocked by how great the Milwaukee Art Museum is. I thought the hoity toity Art Institute in Chicago would blow it away, but it is too chock full of classic art that arouses art students and bores the piss out of me, whereas the MAM had lots of neat and engaging pieces (aside from the 3 colored rectangles).</p>
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		<title>By: Ms Random</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-26012</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms Random</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-26012</guid>
		<description>Okay... I think you&#039;re absolutely right to criticise this lot... but I can&#039;t say I agree with the contention that the overwhelming majority of cyberbullies are male, or that males generally gang up on women on the net.  I have seen the reverse cases just as often... and have witnessed &quot;chivalry&quot; in the shape of male posters backing off from women behaving idiotically, apparently just because they&#039;re women.  It really depends on factors like the particular forum culture.

(I&#039;m a girl, by the way.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay&#8230; I think you're absolutely right to criticise this lot&#8230; but I can't say I agree with the contention that the overwhelming majority of cyberbullies are male, or that males generally gang up on women on the net.  I have seen the reverse cases just as often&#8230; and have witnessed "chivalry" in the shape of male posters backing off from women behaving idiotically, apparently just because they're women.  It really depends on factors like the particular forum culture.</p>
<p>(I'm a girl, by the way.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25689</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25689</guid>
		<description>Aw, this is nothing.  You should see how they&#039;d treat her if she ran for Vice President or somethin&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aw, this is nothing.  You should see how they'd treat her if she ran for Vice President or somethin'.</p>
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		<title>By: Common Reader</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25654</link>
		<dc:creator>Common Reader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 04:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25654</guid>
		<description>You really think men are worse than women online?  This has not been my experience.  Men might have worse pottymouths, but when was the last time you saw a man criticize someone&#039;s parenting online, let alone start a whole livejournal community devoted to the subject?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You really think men are worse than women online?  This has not been my experience.  Men might have worse pottymouths, but when was the last time you saw a man criticize someone's parenting online, let alone start a whole livejournal community devoted to the subject?</p>
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		<title>By: Marc J. Randazza</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25528</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc J. Randazza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25528</guid>
		<description>Get in line!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get in line!  <img src='http://www.popehat.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25498</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25498</guid>
		<description>You betcha.  And now that I am officially a full-fledged Ann Bartow neo-feminist (until Randazza apologizes), I&#039;m gonna rat myself out and officially declare you a sexist pig.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You betcha.  And now that I am officially a full-fledged Ann Bartow neo-feminist (until Randazza apologizes), I'm gonna rat myself out and officially declare you a sexist pig.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25489</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25489</guid>
		<description>I think mentioning Ann Bartow without sending her two weeks advance notice by certified mail is now legally classified as bullying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think mentioning Ann Bartow without sending her two weeks advance notice by certified mail is now legally classified as bullying.</p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25483</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25483</guid>
		<description>Peculiar manner?  Well then, I now consider Ann Bartow my spiritual sherpa and will no longer follow the Randazza Revolution until you apologize and tell me that my manner is merely quasi-peculiar.  So there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peculiar manner?  Well then, I now consider Ann Bartow my spiritual sherpa and will no longer follow the Randazza Revolution until you apologize and tell me that my manner is merely quasi-peculiar.  So there.</p>
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		<title>By: mojo</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25480</link>
		<dc:creator>mojo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25480</guid>
		<description>I knew a guy named Art. He did good work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew a guy named Art. He did good work.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc J. Randazza</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25473</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc J. Randazza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25473</guid>
		<description>Ken,

I too subscribe to the &quot;stay out of the kitchen&quot; theory.  But, I also agree with you that the heat blows both ways.  If you want to post nicely on the internet, you still better expect that there will be a fuckwad out there.  However, if you&#039;re a fuckwad, you should expect to be hunted down and crucified by others.  

I loved this:

&lt;i&gt;Are there ideology-blinded twits out there who would like to intimidate people into silence by throwing around “racist” and “sexist” and “white privilege” and the whole pointlessly polysyllabic lexicon of oppression both real and imagined? Yes. Can they stop us from talking the way we want to talk? No. We can throw it back in their faces.&lt;/i&gt;

But, just &quot;throwing it back in their faces&quot; isn&#039;t enough to highlight the problem.  Lets put it this way, if I didn&#039;t get close to perfect student evaluations, you can bet your life that the academic PC police would come for me.  Anyone in the academy who dares throw it back in &quot;their faces&quot; is usually toast.  

That isn&#039;t to say that we (I) shouldn&#039;t have to stand the heat too.  We should.  Back when I &lt;a href=&quot;http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/intentional-sex-torts/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;criticized&lt;/a&gt; the new, hip, PC &quot;intentional sex torts theory,&quot; the author I criticized made it a point to contact the dean at my law school, to &quot;&lt;i&gt;verify that Marc Randazza is indeed associated with Barry University School of Law&lt;/i&gt;&quot;.  &quot;Verify&quot; my ass.  She was hoping that the dean would be as uptight and as stupid as she was.  He read her quotes of my critique out-of-context, raised his eyebrow, then read my whole post and said there was nothing wrong when you read the whole thing.  

Nevertheless, you can bet your next month&#039;s paycheck that Citron will do the same thing in her quest to turn the world into a binary case study in sexism.  

I don&#039;t think that Scott&#039;s point is that &quot;we&quot; are being silenced.  I think that Scott, in his peculiar manner, is pointing out that those who bitch the loudest about unreasonable voices &quot;silencing&quot; other dissenting voices usually are the ones who are most strongly advocating the end of any dissent.  Even the most sexist person on AutoAdmit wouldn&#039;t say &quot;you can&#039;t argue with me because you are a woman,&quot; but the Ann Bartow / Danielle Citron / Andrea Dworkin crowd will simply huck &quot;male privilege&quot; or other bullshit at any dissent.  Scott&#039;s not saying that it isn&#039;t fair, Scott&#039;s simply pointing out hypocrisy.  Which frankly, is like shooting fish in a barrel when you&#039;re talking about leftover second wave feminists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken,</p>
<p>I too subscribe to the "stay out of the kitchen" theory.  But, I also agree with you that the heat blows both ways.  If you want to post nicely on the internet, you still better expect that there will be a fuckwad out there.  However, if you're a fuckwad, you should expect to be hunted down and crucified by others.  </p>
<p>I loved this:</p>
<p><i>Are there ideology-blinded twits out there who would like to intimidate people into silence by throwing around “racist” and “sexist” and “white privilege” and the whole pointlessly polysyllabic lexicon of oppression both real and imagined? Yes. Can they stop us from talking the way we want to talk? No. We can throw it back in their faces.</i></p>
<p>But, just "throwing it back in their faces" isn't enough to highlight the problem.  Lets put it this way, if I didn't get close to perfect student evaluations, you can bet your life that the academic PC police would come for me.  Anyone in the academy who dares throw it back in "their faces" is usually toast.  </p>
<p>That isn't to say that we (I) shouldn't have to stand the heat too.  We should.  Back when I <a href="http://randazza.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/intentional-sex-torts/" rel="nofollow">criticized</a> the new, hip, PC "intentional sex torts theory," the author I criticized made it a point to contact the dean at my law school, to "<i>verify that Marc Randazza is indeed associated with Barry University School of Law</i>".  "Verify" my ass.  She was hoping that the dean would be as uptight and as stupid as she was.  He read her quotes of my critique out-of-context, raised his eyebrow, then read my whole post and said there was nothing wrong when you read the whole thing.  </p>
<p>Nevertheless, you can bet your next month's paycheck that Citron will do the same thing in her quest to turn the world into a binary case study in sexism.  </p>
<p>I don't think that Scott's point is that "we" are being silenced.  I think that Scott, in his peculiar manner, is pointing out that those who bitch the loudest about unreasonable voices "silencing" other dissenting voices usually are the ones who are most strongly advocating the end of any dissent.  Even the most sexist person on AutoAdmit wouldn't say "you can't argue with me because you are a woman," but the Ann Bartow / Danielle Citron / Andrea Dworkin crowd will simply huck "male privilege" or other bullshit at any dissent.  Scott's not saying that it isn't fair, Scott's simply pointing out hypocrisy.  Which frankly, is like shooting fish in a barrel when you're talking about leftover second wave feminists.</p>
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		<title>By: shg</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25468</link>
		<dc:creator>shg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:06:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25468</guid>
		<description>So now you&#039;re really confusing me.  Where do we disagree?  Perhaps you&#039;re confusing me with Robert Redford, which naturally happens quite frequently?

Could it be that Hahvahd rhetorical thing that I lack, being undeniably tied to the simple, pedestrian meaning of words rather than the secret hidden theoretical meaning of secret hidden theories?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So now you're really confusing me.  Where do we disagree?  Perhaps you're confusing me with Robert Redford, which naturally happens quite frequently?</p>
<p>Could it be that Hahvahd rhetorical thing that I lack, being undeniably tied to the simple, pedestrian meaning of words rather than the secret hidden theoretical meaning of secret hidden theories?</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25464</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25464</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I can’t speak for Marc, but I’m not rubbed the wrong way. Of course, Ken is correct in his understanding, though there is an element of staying out of the kitchen if you can’t stand the heat, rather than sue or prohibit speech. But the most important aspect is the gender/victimization, which eliminates discussion or dissent, since no one is allowed to challenge or criticize anything as soon as it is framed as a gender issue. Suddenly, disagreement renders one sexist, and that was the the real fight here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;ll grant you a bit of &quot;stay of out the kitchen&quot;, but only to the extent that I think informed people should &lt;i&gt;expect&lt;/i&gt; to encounter assholes who treat them badly on the internet.  That doesn&#039;t mean that the assholes are pardonable or that their victims should not call them out as assholes.

Here&#039;s where we part company, though, Scott -- I am heartily sick of the &quot;eliminates dissent&quot; or &quot;we&#039;re not allowed to talk about X&quot; response to political correctness.  Are there ideology-blinded twits out there who would like to intimidate people into silence by throwing around &quot;racist&quot; and &quot;sexist&quot; and &quot;white privilege&quot; and the whole pointlessly polysyllabic lexicon of oppression both real and imagined?  Yes.  Can they stop us from talking the way we want to talk?  &lt;i&gt;No.&lt;/i&gt;  We can throw it back in their faces.  If we expect the AutoAdmit defendants to endure what they endured without legislation or litigation -- and if we admit that there is any tinge of &quot;stay out of the kitchen&quot; or &quot;man up, for God&#039;s sake&quot; to the culture of the internet -- then surely we need to be able to endure some theoretician whackaloons throwing the labels sexist and racist at us.  And it would be nice if we could do it without complaining that we are somehow being silenced.  Because we&#039;re not, for God&#039;s sake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I can’t speak for Marc, but I’m not rubbed the wrong way. Of course, Ken is correct in his understanding, though there is an element of staying out of the kitchen if you can’t stand the heat, rather than sue or prohibit speech. But the most important aspect is the gender/victimization, which eliminates discussion or dissent, since no one is allowed to challenge or criticize anything as soon as it is framed as a gender issue. Suddenly, disagreement renders one sexist, and that was the the real fight here.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'll grant you a bit of "stay of out the kitchen", but only to the extent that I think informed people should <i>expect</i> to encounter assholes who treat them badly on the internet.  That doesn't mean that the assholes are pardonable or that their victims should not call them out as assholes.</p>
<p>Here's where we part company, though, Scott &#8212; I am heartily sick of the "eliminates dissent" or "we're not allowed to talk about X" response to political correctness.  Are there ideology-blinded twits out there who would like to intimidate people into silence by throwing around "racist" and "sexist" and "white privilege" and the whole pointlessly polysyllabic lexicon of oppression both real and imagined?  Yes.  Can they stop us from talking the way we want to talk?  <i>No.</i>  We can throw it back in their faces.  If we expect the AutoAdmit defendants to endure what they endured without legislation or litigation &#8212; and if we admit that there is any tinge of "stay out of the kitchen" or "man up, for God's sake" to the culture of the internet &#8212; then surely we need to be able to endure some theoretician whackaloons throwing the labels sexist and racist at us.  And it would be nice if we could do it without complaining that we are somehow being silenced.  Because we're not, for God's sake.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Reed</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25423</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 02:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25423</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll get over it.  Come see us sometime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'll get over it.  Come see us sometime.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25422</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 02:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25422</guid>
		<description>Sorry Anne, that was an intended bit of snark (just in case this cry into the wilderness hits the Milwaukee arts community), parroting the sort of geographical scorn southerners read all too frequently.  I apologize if I hit you or yours in the crossfire.

Though I&#039;ve not been to Milwaukee, I rather like what I&#039;ve seen of Wisconsin and the people I met there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Anne, that was an intended bit of snark (just in case this cry into the wilderness hits the Milwaukee arts community), parroting the sort of geographical scorn southerners read all too frequently.  I apologize if I hit you or yours in the crossfire.</p>
<p>Though I've not been to Milwaukee, I rather like what I've seen of Wisconsin and the people I met there.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Reed</title>
		<link>http://www.popehat.com/2009/03/11/perceptions-of-gender-class-and-the-other-the-greater-internet-fuckwad-theory-and-the-curious-case-of-a-milwaukee-mom-and-her-evisceration-at-the-hands-of-milwaukees-best/comment-page-1/#comment-25420</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 02:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.popehat.com/?p=3403#comment-25420</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re welcome (for the tip), and I&#039;m a Popehat fan, but that &quot;dying city&quot; you speak of is a city I love.  I can&#039;t help thinking that in that and the &quot;food chain&quot; line, this post sounds a bit like the ones it rightly criticizes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You're welcome (for the tip), and I'm a Popehat fan, but that "dying city" you speak of is a city I love.  I can't help thinking that in that and the "food chain" line, this post sounds a bit like the ones it rightly criticizes.</p>
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