Comments on: This Court Finds You In Violation of Bill Cosby And Sentences You To Pull Up Your Pants http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/ A Group Complaint about Law, Liberty, and Leisure Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:39:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Patrick http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-3031 Patrick Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:53:23 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-3031 Houston we have a problem here. It seems our semantic and semiotic systems are out of alignment with the receiving station. Propose EVA to lock this down. Houston we have a problem here. It seems our semantic and semiotic systems are out of alignment with the receiving station.

Propose EVA to lock this down.

]]> By: bdsista http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-3027 bdsista Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:43:26 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-3027 Yes but there is separate justice for African Americans, read In the Matter of Color by A. Leon Higginbotham for the history of Race and the Law. Yes but there is separate justice for African Americans, read In the Matter of Color by A. Leon Higginbotham for the history of Race and the Law.

]]> By: Ken http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-2921 Ken Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:13:57 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-2921 I don't think there's a separate rule of judicial conduct for African-American judges, actually. I don't think there's a separate rule of judicial conduct for African-American judges, actually.

]]> By: Twobesure http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-2920 Twobesure Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:02:58 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-2920 The Judge was right. Only if you know and truly understand the Black culture/community will you know and appreciate what the Judge did. No doubt he see everyday the "village" in his courts. Perhaps that shock factor was what was needed. BTW, I agree with bill Cosby. It is time for us the elders in the community and for Parents to take charge of rearing our Kids. Kudos to Judge Arrington and Bill Cosby! The Judge was right. Only if you know and truly understand the Black culture/community will you know and appreciate what the Judge did. No doubt he see everyday the "village" in his courts. Perhaps that shock factor was what was needed. BTW, I agree with bill Cosby. It is time for us the elders in the community and for Parents to take charge of rearing our Kids. Kudos to Judge Arrington and Bill Cosby!

]]> By: Patrick http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-2307 Patrick Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:18:11 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-2307 Bdsista I too find the judge's actions commendable. But as an attorney, like Ken, I find the time and location he chose for his actions lamentable. I don't argue that a judge should leave his experience and community aside when he puts on the robe. Each of us is unique and should be guided by that experience. But there are norms in the law that can't be disregarded, and one of those is that a judge is supposed to try to treat anyone appearing before him equally. If he can't set aside his experience and community to the extent required to appear impartial, he shouldn't seek to be a judge. In other words, in the legal culture and under legal ethics (which as an attorney you know are distinct from more mainstream cultures and ethics), a courtroom is no place to separate people by race or culture, no matter how commendable the motive, and no matter how appropriate Judge Arrington's actions would be on his own time. I agree with you that he's a good man and should be held as an exemplar for his community. Bdsista I too find the judge's actions commendable. But as an attorney, like Ken, I find the time and location he chose for his actions lamentable.

I don't argue that a judge should leave his experience and community aside when he puts on the robe. Each of us is unique and should be guided by that experience. But there are norms in the law that can't be disregarded, and one of those is that a judge is supposed to try to treat anyone appearing before him equally. If he can't set aside his experience and community to the extent required to appear impartial, he shouldn't seek to be a judge.

In other words, in the legal culture and under legal ethics (which as an attorney you know are distinct from more mainstream cultures and ethics), a courtroom is no place to separate people by race or culture, no matter how commendable the motive, and no matter how appropriate Judge Arrington's actions would be on his own time.

I agree with you that he's a good man and should be held as an exemplar for his community.

]]> By: Ken http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-2306 Ken Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:06:55 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-2306 No, actually, it's not in the least critical what stage any proceeding was in. First of all, it's highly doubtful that all the defendants in the courtroom were in the same case or at the same stage of a case -- the news stories I followed suggested that this judge did this during his daily calendar call, which would have involved a large variety of cases. Second, I'm not suggesting the judge made a formal finding regarding these defendants. He did, however, single them out for a lecture. To say that he did so because they were "members of a community" rather than because of their skin color is a dodge. Did he quiz each one first about where they grew up? I have no problem with people expressing their views about collective responsibility in the abstract. I have problems with people doing that in their official capacity. A judge's role is not promoting collectivism. A judge's role is to uphold the Constitution and to respect the individual rights of each defendant. He's free to indulge in collectivist twaddle off of the bench. But when he does it when he's on the bench, if I were an attorney for one of those defendants, I'd have to ask -- is my client going to be judged differently when it comes to legal rulings because this judge thinks he is collectively responsible for the state of the African-American community? Attempting to connect the judiciary with collectivism is abhorrent. That's what they do in places where individuals are judged not based on the rule of law, not based on what the state can prove about what they did, but based on what some People's Committee thinks would best advance the interests of the community. And actually, for many years many judges in this country judged that way, and some still do. The "community" they were protecting through their rulings, explicitly and implicitly, was the white community, and the defendants were treated worse when they were African-American. No, actually, it's not in the least critical what stage any proceeding was in. First of all, it's highly doubtful that all the defendants in the courtroom were in the same case or at the same stage of a case — the news stories I followed suggested that this judge did this during his daily calendar call, which would have involved a large variety of cases. Second, I'm not suggesting the judge made a formal finding regarding these defendants. He did, however, single them out for a lecture. To say that he did so because they were "members of a community" rather than because of their skin color is a dodge. Did he quiz each one first about where they grew up?

I have no problem with people expressing their views about collective responsibility in the abstract. I have problems with people doing that in their official capacity. A judge's role is not promoting collectivism. A judge's role is to uphold the Constitution and to respect the individual rights of each defendant. He's free to indulge in collectivist twaddle off of the bench. But when he does it when he's on the bench, if I were an attorney for one of those defendants, I'd have to ask — is my client going to be judged differently when it comes to legal rulings because this judge thinks he is collectively responsible for the state of the African-American community?

Attempting to connect the judiciary with collectivism is abhorrent. That's what they do in places where individuals are judged not based on the rule of law, not based on what the state can prove about what they did, but based on what some People's Committee thinks would best advance the interests of the community. And actually, for many years many judges in this country judged that way, and some still do. The "community" they were protecting through their rulings, explicitly and implicitly, was the white community, and the defendants were treated worse when they were African-American.

]]> By: bdsista http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-2305 bdsista Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:54:03 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-2305 It is not a lecture based upon the color of his skin, but as a member of a community that historically has felt a sense of collective responsibility for those in the community. That is where the motivation for the lecture comes from, not being race-based per se. The African proverb, "It takes a village to raise a child," comes from many principles of life that are based in African culture which has transcended slavery are a part of African American culture. It is a part of our culture that has enable us to survive. The actions of these young people not only affect their personal survival but the survival of a community, in larger terms of a people, yes maybe of a race. I have argued in International law classes I attended in Europe that America practices Genocide in its actions or lack of action regarding certain groups. It was vociferously argued against by my European legal colleagues since genocide in the Geneva Convention was defined by actions during the holocaust. However when you look at intentional actions against Native Americans and others of color, it is not some random act that motivates those of us to react collectively to try to assist our youth. I would direct you to the comments on Racialicious made by AC who is a Judge and ask you to reflect from a perspective that would include more collectivist principles. Also it is unclear at what stage in the trial the talk was made. That is critical to the point you make. Had the Judge been about to render his verdict, then lectures are commonplace, the fact that he wanted to make his lecture in a way that it would perhaps actually resonate with the defendants, I still find commendable. It is not a lecture based upon the color of his skin, but as a member of a community that historically has felt a sense of collective responsibility for those in the community. That is where the motivation for the lecture comes from, not being race-based per se. The African proverb, "It takes a village to raise a child," comes from many principles of life that are based in African culture which has transcended slavery are a part of African American culture. It is a part of our culture that has enable us to survive. The actions of these young people not only affect their personal survival but the survival of a community, in larger terms of a people, yes maybe of a race. I have argued in International law classes I attended in Europe that America practices Genocide in its actions or lack of action regarding certain groups. It was vociferously argued against by my European legal colleagues since genocide in the Geneva Convention was defined by actions during the holocaust. However when you look at intentional actions against Native Americans and others of color, it is not some random act that motivates those of us to react collectively to try to assist our youth.
I would direct you to the comments on Racialicious made by AC who is a Judge and ask you to reflect from a perspective that would include more collectivist principles. Also it is unclear at what stage in the trial the talk was made. That is critical to the point you make. Had the Judge been about to render his verdict, then lectures are commonplace, the fact that he wanted to make his lecture in a way that it would perhaps actually resonate with the defendants, I still find commendable.

]]> By: Ken http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-2301 Ken Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:22:56 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-2301 Bdista, you make fine points in favor of mentoring, even no-nonsense give-a-lecture mentoring. But "the fine points of law," as you dismiss them, are not an irrelevance or an inconvenience but the entire point of a neutral judiciary and of the rule of law. To be blunt, African-Americans have <i>vastly</i> more to lose from disdain for the "fine points of law" than they have to gain. The fact that African-Americans often are painted with a broad brush and held responsible for the actions of others based solely on skin color is not an excuse for a judge to perpetuate that view. As a criminal defense lawyer, if I had been there, I would have been infuriated -- not because I was excluded as a white lawyer, but because one of my clients was in there <i>included</i> in a lecture because of the color of his skin. Bdista, you make fine points in favor of mentoring, even no-nonsense give-a-lecture mentoring. But "the fine points of law," as you dismiss them, are not an irrelevance or an inconvenience but the entire point of a neutral judiciary and of the rule of law. To be blunt, African-Americans have vastly more to lose from disdain for the "fine points of law" than they have to gain. The fact that African-Americans often are painted with a broad brush and held responsible for the actions of others based solely on skin color is not an excuse for a judge to perpetuate that view.

As a criminal defense lawyer, if I had been there, I would have been infuriated — not because I was excluded as a white lawyer, but because one of my clients was in there included in a lecture because of the color of his skin.

]]> By: bdsista http://www.popehat.com/2008/04/08/this-court-finds-you-in-violation-of-bill-cosby-and-setences-you-to-pull-up-your-pants/comment-page-1/#comment-2300 bdsista Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:16:42 +0000 http://www.newpopehat.dreamhosters.com/?p=683#comment-2300 As an attorney and an educator, I applaud Judge Arrington. You can argue the the fine points of the law all you want, but if the end result is young people in the criminal justice system, then I am glad that Judge Arrington showed some measure of caring by providing these young people with a lecture on their behavior. Sometimes getting a message to young people is not convenient to persons sense of what is conventional. In education we call it a "Teachable Moment". It is disingenuous to argue the fact that they are not responsible for the actions of their race in the community, when in fact, all Black people get painted with the same brush. When you say inner city crime or hell, crime at all, what image comes to mind in most of America? If the defendants are Black and commit crimes in the Black community, then then are responsible for the crime. We all are responsible for our young people. Had the Judge commented in a full courtroom, they would not have heard his well intended and caring message. They would have been embarrassed and felt denigrated, particularly before an audience of those whom are not in their community and whom they feel do not care about them or their lives. Teachers learn to pull difficult students aside or address them in small groups to modify behavior. Males in particular get very upset if they are humiliated in public. Judge Arrington like all other Judges are also human. It must be very try;ing to see young people throw their lives away and in his capacity he had the opportunity to make a difference. I notice in the midst of all this criticism, no one has asked the young people how they felt or if the message had an impact. Before you criticize someone who is trying to do right by our young people, look at what you do to change them. Volunteer in a school or a Boys Club, Mentor a youth. Our young people of African American and Hispanic ethnicity have the lowest test scores in many states and need mentors and people willing to give them straight talk about life and the choices they make. No one is better qualified than a Judge to make an impact on a person who can go one way or the other. As an attorney and an educator, I applaud Judge Arrington. You can argue the the fine points of the law all you want, but if the end result is young people in the criminal justice system, then I am glad that Judge Arrington showed some measure of caring by providing these young people with a lecture on their behavior. Sometimes getting a message to young people is not convenient to persons sense of what is conventional. In education we call it a "Teachable Moment". It is disingenuous to argue the fact that they are not responsible for the actions of their race in the community, when in fact, all Black people get painted with the same brush. When you say inner city crime or hell, crime at all, what image comes to mind in most of America? If the defendants are Black and commit crimes in the Black community, then then are responsible for the crime. We all are responsible for our young people. Had the Judge commented in a full courtroom, they would not have heard his well intended and caring message. They would have been embarrassed and felt denigrated, particularly before an audience of those whom are not in their community and whom they feel do not care about them or their lives. Teachers learn to pull difficult students aside or address them in small groups to modify behavior. Males in particular get very upset if they are humiliated in public. Judge Arrington like all other Judges are also human. It must be very try;ing to see young people throw their lives away and in his capacity he had the opportunity to make a difference. I notice in the midst of all this criticism, no one has asked the young people how they felt or if the message had an impact. Before you criticize someone who is trying to do right by our young people, look at what you do to change them. Volunteer in a school or a Boys Club, Mentor a youth. Our young people of African American and Hispanic ethnicity have the lowest test scores in many states and need mentors and people willing to give them straight talk about life and the choices they make. No one is better qualified than a Judge to make an impact on a person who can go one way or the other.

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